What would "ruin" Them Fightin' Herds for you?

LoveIsBlue

Active Member
Feb 7, 2016
33
16
The game being bad would be a pretty big dealbreaker.
Doesn't look like that's going to happen, but let's be real--there's still time for stuff to go wrong.
 
  • Like
Reactions: OCisbestungulate

ChaotixSpark

Whiffs for Days
Backers' Beta Tester
Mar 18, 2016
21
8
Skullgirls managed to make their crazy combo system engaging on both sides by heavily incentivising resets (ergo, ending your combo voluntarily and giving the other player a spot to act) by scaling down the damage you do and the meter you gain overtime and simultaneously scaling up the meter your opponent gets for getting hit in a row. They had a hard combo limiter in form of an eventual ability to burst too, but that wouldn't trigger until a few hits into any new combo. So a skilled player would get real creative and just use the combos as tools to set up reset after reset, making the other guy guess between where to block, tech, or what reversal attacks to use, and try to keep their offense up forever without having the game be a one-sided afair - a less skilled player would land a stray hit, confirm it into a 30 hit combo they found on youtube, and waste potential like crazy or even help their opponent out in the process.

The M6 devs seem to be taking some notes from SG here cause I've noticed they tested around with the way the juggle decay meter responds to combo resets. I have faith they'll do something that's engaging on both ends of the combo as well, without giving up the freedom to just chain anything into anything and get real creative if you feel like it. At any rate, universal bursts are pretty unenticing in my book. Getting in on someone is work, I want it rewarded and not have the other guy be bailed out cause he's got his out-of-jail-free card loaded.
Not that I don't think that Skullgirls is an amazing game, but I didn't like it just because it was more intensive on combo strings than mechanics (footsies, mind games, mix ups, ect.). Yes, the game was super heavy on fighting game mechanics, but if you didn't dedicate yourself to learning the combo, you did crap for damage and you were no where near to making worthy trades.

Getting in on someone isn't work, it's part of the game. Also, getting to a point where you can bait their Bursts and mind game them so they save it for later or waste it on a hit that you weren't going to continue on is satisfying as well. Also not saying that TFH needs burst, but either they make a heavy combo decay like Melty or make it footsie intensive like SF or Guilty.

The thing I want from TFH and the thing you want from TFH might be different but both would still be an engaging game. Since they want it to go to Bronies who have never touched a fighting game, save for Smash, I don't think an input heavy game would keep many eyes focused on it. Especially since we recently just got news that Pokken outsold SFV, so as a company, making a fun fite game video game like UMVC3 or Skullgirls definitely won't keep me engaged to make it my primary Training Mode time waster, it won't keep some of the more casual people either.

Point is; I don't enjoy heavy input games. TFH I hope is combo heavy, but nothing close to Skullgirls or UMVC3. At the same time, not as simple as MK or Rising Thunder. Just hope for a happy balance like my personal fave Melty. Combo strings and loops are a thing, but if you're not dealing 4k in game everytime but you can still play a mean footsies game, then you can still compete with players outside of your skill level.
 

LoveIsBlue

Active Member
Feb 7, 2016
33
16
Not that I don't think that Skullgirls is an amazing game, but I didn't like it just because it was more intensive on combo strings than mechanics (footsies, mind games, mix ups, ect.).
I would just like to point out that this is a very strange thing to say, at least for modern-day Skullgirls, when the heavily-encouraged reset meta relies entirely on mix-ups and mindgames. You certainly have a point with footsies, though.
 

ChaotixSpark

Whiffs for Days
Backers' Beta Tester
Mar 18, 2016
21
8
I would just like to point out that this is a very strange thing to say, at least for modern-day Skullgirls, when the heavily-encouraged reset meta relies entirely on mix-ups and mindgames. You certainly have a point with footsies, though.
Well I mean, the rest of the post was me not enjoying heavy input heavy games. Combo string memorization and what not. I wasn't saying Skullgirls didn't have mix ups and mind games and even meta tropes like "shifting the screen", but after you land the hit confirm, you better have your combo game set up or else youre going to do crap for damage where time outs are the only win con. I hope that's not what TFH is. If you play something like Melty where combos are lenient and loose, but you still need to understand your tools or else youre going to get blown up, that's what I want TFH to be.
 

JELIFISH19

Crowdfund Backer
Crowdfund Backer
Apr 17, 2016
6
1
Well I mean, the rest of the post was me not enjoying heavy input heavy games. Combo string memorization and what not. I wasn't saying Skullgirls didn't have mix ups and mind games and even meta tropes like "shifting the screen", but after you land the hit confirm, you better have your combo game set up or else youre going to do crap for damage where time outs are the only win con. I hope that's not what TFH is. If you play something like Melty where combos are lenient and loose, but you still need to understand your tools or else youre going to get blown up, that's what I want TFH to be.
Skullgirls combos are very lenient. The only thing you have to pay attention to is IPS. You need to memorize combos if you want to do optimized stuff but that's true of every game, even Melty. People who compete in Melty clearly memorized their combos from all of their confirms. That's why they keep repeating the same combos over and over.
 

fenster

Backers' Beta Tester
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 3, 2016
39
33
8

FRAME

INPUT LAG

Okay, can I get you to go play SF2 and get me an excessively long Dhalsim combo please?
I know the point your making and I agree, but I don't want to miss a chance to post some redizzy combos :v Not dhalsim but he has redizzy stuff too though not nearly as fun as Guile


I wasn't saying Skullgirls didn't have mix ups and mind games and even meta tropes like "shifting the screen", but after you land the hit confirm, you better have your combo game set up or else youre going to do crap for damage where time outs are the only win con. I hope that's not what TFH is. If you play something like Melty where combos are lenient and loose, but you still need to understand your tools or else youre going to get blown up, that's what I want TFH to be.
Just hope for a happy balance like my personal fave Melty. Combo strings and loops are a thing, but if you're not dealing 4k in game everytime but you can still play a mean footsies game, then you can still compete with players outside of your skill level.

So apparently in Skullgirls (and MVC3, and I presume you'd put in KI as well) you don't need to know how to use your tools or know Neutral Game in order to win? And only Melty allows both "footsies" and neutral?

That's a load of complete nonsense. You have to learn combos in Melty in order to do anything just as much as you do in SG. You're trying to say that because SG has longer combos, that learning Neutral game or mixups or just general Decision Making isn't as important. There's basically no other way to interpret your "If your combos aren't good, you can only win by cheesing out with timer" statement. If you think that's the case, kindly actually watch some High Level SG and pay attention to what is actually going on.

Watch the first game of this match here, which DOES go to the end of the timer, but not at all because of the reason you said:


Note that Duck starts his comeback starting around the 60 mark on the in game timer, so 2/3rds if you ignore Duck guessing wrong against resets in the first 1/3rd. The longest combos were two 7 in-game second combos, both of which were kill confirms when the Sage had low life. Everything else was a short combo that lasted 4 in game seconds that went into a reset, and only one of those resets hit. Everything else was decision making based on using tools, habits, and spacing. You know, Neutral, or basically the essence of what people mean by footsies.

The point I'm making is that, if you look at how much time overall was going on in this round, most of it was spent in making decisions with tools. This is something ANY player can do. Back when I first started SG, even I could get a game or 2 off of the experienced players just due to what resets and Neutral offered me to do to keep up with decision making, even though I wasn't as experienced at combos yet.

You try to say that Skullgirls/Marvel 3 have some neutral and mixups, but the words of the rest of your points don't at all align with this one-off statement, so it feels completely half-hearted. You don't have to like these games since they do especially focus on combos and a players ability to execute long strings. But to insinuate that these games don't also have everything else in terms of Neutral or decision making? Then you're dead wrong. You can barely make the case of "Being Combo Focused, they have less decisions to make than Street Fighter due to time spent in combos", but even that has problems too!

Your judgement of games that are combo focused should be mostly based on if you like watching and/or performing long combos. But don't confuse that with trying to insinuate what the games offer in terms of Neutral or decisions.



Secondly, The real issue to consider with Combo Focused games is "How Often do the players get to make decisions?". That's why SG was balanced to favor resets, which are just plain old mixups but with variable timing and placement, so that combos have lots of points where both players are making decisions. That's why KI has the Combo Breaker system at all. That's the meta point you brought up with Guilty Gear Burst when you consider GG burst vs SG burst. This point is where it becomes less of a issue that is personal preference and starts to become a significant problem across the board.

Lastly, one last nitpick that's still crucial:
than mechanics (footsies, mind games, mix ups, ect.).
Those aren't mechanics. Mechanics are tools to shape those, but those are the principles of fighting games which have always existed. This is an important distinction.
 

Rashy

EVO Champ Since Vietnam
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 4, 2016
20
9
Always online would give me cancer, but micro-transactions wouldn't bother me too bad, so long as their purely aesthetic.
 

Poppun

Backers' Beta Tester
Backers' Beta Tester
Jun 9, 2016
21
16
Alright, let's try this again


An everyone dies ending, I doubt this would happen but it would be terrible if it did


Having a "You're the real antagonist and are actually worse than what you were fighting against" twist near the end. Granted this isn't always bad to me, there are some versions that I find very interesting such as having your actions in the game having reprocusions later on which can sometimes result in this if you make enough bad choices. I mean more the same territory as the "Blue's Ratticate Theory", which a few people have applied to the speculation for this game already in regards to the predators being sent to the hold


Having overly difficult controls; I don't own a joystick or play enough PC games to warrant buying one so I use my key board which means diagonal inputs and quick inputs are a bit difficult. I know it's been addressed in the comments of the crowd funding campaign that Them's Fighting Herds will have simple control, but I did have a bad experience with a game I downloaded a while ago that was supposed to be playable using a keyboard. But there were so many cases where you either had to use a diagonal input, press a large number of buttons really quickly or both that it was difficult to do so. (Not to mention the curt reply I got when I mentioned this to the people that released it which basically boiled down to "You just aren't typing fast enough")

I do still have it on my computer and enjoy it mind you, even though there's only one character I can play reliably (Which is somewhat ironic since it's also the character that's supposed to be the most unpredictable)
 
Last edited:

fenster

Backers' Beta Tester
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 3, 2016
39
33
It's a fighting game designed with traditional 2D inputs; you're not going to be able to escape diagonal inputs in designing this cause it's pretty crucial to taking advantage of all the possible directions with the already limiting controls. There's pretty much no way they're going to make a good fighting game without using Diagonals.

You're just gonna have to get used to rolling your inputs with pressing down -> down + right -> right (for a basic Quarter circle). It's a bit different but like everything with fighting games it's all about practice to get the muscle memory in.

Also worth noting that, assuming you at least have had one other console or controller for one at some point in your life, you can always get a USB adapter to use on PC if you don't want to shell out $20-$30 for a normal good pad. Even if you don't play other pc games, that's extremely cheap.
 

Oreo

Keepin' It Stylish
Mane6 QA
Feb 2, 2016
270
418
35
D.M.V. FGC
I don't own a joystick or play enough PC games to warrant buying one so I use my key board which means diagonal inputs and quick inputs are a bit difficult. I know it's been addressed in the comments of the crowd funding campaign that Them's Fighting Herds will have simple control, but I did have a bad experience with a game I downloaded a while ago that was supposed to be playable using a keyboard. But there were so many cases where you either had to use a diagonal input, press a large number of buttons really quickly or both that it was difficult to do so. (Not to mention the curt reply I got when I mentioned this to the people that released it which basically boiled down to "You just aren't typing fast enough")
TFH will have diagonal inputs. It is a traditional fighting game after all. Inputs should be relatively simple, but the key word is "relatively", as some 2D fighting games have extremely complicated inputs (a good example is the character Geese Howard from the Fatal Fury/King of Fighters games, and his move Raging Storm. It's what's commonly referred to as a "pretzel motion"). Overly-complicated inputs are being avoided as much as possible, but the basics of special move inputs from fighting games, like quarter circles and charge moves, will be present.

That being said, our combat designer @Nappy plays pretty much everything on a keyboard. A keyboard is actually more than capable of playing a 2D fighter; it's considered one of the most desirable peripherals, since it gives a level of speed and control that arcade sticks and traditional controllers can't offer. There is even a line of customized arcade sticks, called "hitboxes" (not to be confused with the video game mechanic use of the word) that replace the joystick with 4 buttons, to emulate the way a character is controlled on keyboard.

It may be difficult at first to learn these inputs, regardless of what peripheral you choose. If you talk to older players, almost everyone will tell the same story about the sense of elation they experienced when they finally did a Hadouken with Ryu in Street Fighter for the first time. TFH will, hopefully, be a game that is mechanically simple to play, but has enough depth for players of all skill levels to enjoy, and that balancing act is always part of designing the game. Don't get discouraged if you're having trouble with some of the inputs; everyone did at first, and it can take time.

P.S. - Some keyboards have an issue with multiple keys being pressed down at the same time. It's called "ghosting." This may be something you're experiencing, but I'm not qualified enough to say for sure. Just something to keep in mind.
 

shoyrumaster11

03l@nD3r
Crowdfund Backer
Feb 3, 2016
11
2
25
Victoria, Australia
I think microtransactions, always online, boring gameplay and terrible controls are the main things that would ruin TFH for me. I'd also be pretty disappointed if the Linux/Mac port is nowhere near as good as the Windows version. Aside from my concerns about ports, though, I don't think we'll have to worry about any of this actually happening since the developers seem to know what they are doing and are very loyal to the community.
 
Last edited:

Poppun

Backers' Beta Tester
Backers' Beta Tester
Jun 9, 2016
21
16
True, and it's not impossible for me to do them, it was more a matter of having a lot of them. I've only really played a handful of fighting games (when I do it's usually more for the characters or designs) the best way I can think of to describe it is the opposite of the Smash Brothers I've played did: With Smash Brothers the controls are similar for every character, a certain combination of buttons will make Pikachu kick upwards and that same combination of buttons makes Kirby kick upwards, each character has unique attacks but it's the same set of commands to trigger them.

With the game I'm talking about, what they did was give each character a largely different set of commands resulting in some of them having three different consecutive diagonals that needed to be entered to perform a simple attack (and some of the special ones were an absolute nightmare to try and enter on a keyboard, I know one was press "a" enter a clockwise circle of all 8 directions and press "b").

So yes, that would probably result in a good bit of frustration (^.^')
 

Cinnamaldehyde

DDR Savant
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 10, 2016
427
1,573
26
Lake Stevens
There isn't much I could see possibly "ruining" the game for me. But it would sure suck if they gave up on the dynamic music system.

It would also suck if they didn't put backers in the credits.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nadia

Velvet_The_Reindeer

Backers' Beta Tester
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 13, 2016
154
95
Always online and Micro Transactions, id love to be able to play offline if I so choose, also hopefulyl we will have support for local VS against friends
 

Norad2

As unprepared for TFH as Pom.
Crowdfund Backer
Jun 21, 2016
22
20
Ohio
If at least a few of the characters don't end up as True Companions that will really damage the story mode for me.

And since I came primarily for characters and world with little knowledge of fighting games, a damaged (to me) story mode will hurt my experience over all.

Speaking from a technical standpoint, always online would definitely grind my gears.
 

Sapare

Backers' Beta Tester
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 3, 2016
10
9
Honestly, disappointing story (mode). I get it is a fighting game and story modes are usually a side detail to those, but as an lawyer friendly equine lover, I am here for the plot.

That said, if the game disappointed me but lived up to a majority opinion, I would not hold it against the developer too much. They promised a fighting game first and foremost, not a heart touching tale of love, life, and the universe.

And it would be sad if the music did not live up to expectations. I love RC88 music and this should be his shot at making it big.
 

Nadia

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2016
96
76
Germany
It would be disappointing If the Goat becomes "PreOrder premium content super extreme one time chance and if you miss it you will never get the char" DLC. Ö_Ö
 

Fancy Tickler

Seasoned master of the Kung Fu Grip
Crowdfund Backer
Feb 3, 2016
2
1
Having Them's Fightin Herds: Turbo Arcade Edition come out three months later.

I mean, maybe not a dealbreaker. I'd probably still end up buying it day one.

But I'd definitely make sarcastic comments about it on the internet.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Delusional Dreamer

fenster

Backers' Beta Tester
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 3, 2016
39
33
It would be disappointing If the Goat becomes "PreOrder premium content super extreme one time chance and if you miss it you will never get the char" DLC. Ö_Ö
Nah, at worst it'll probably just be free DLC for backers/early game adoopters, and people who buy the game much later will have to pay a small fee for dlc.
 

JELIFISH19

Crowdfund Backer
Crowdfund Backer
Apr 17, 2016
6
1
Honestly, disappointing story (mode). I get it is a fighting game and story modes are usually a side detail to those, but as an lawyer friendly equine lover, I am here for the plot.

That said, if the game disappointed me but lived up to a majority opinion, I would not hold it against the developer too much. They promised a fighting game first and foremost, not a heart touching tale of love, life, and the universe.

And it would be sad if the music did not live up to expectations. I love RC88 music and this should be his shot at making it big.
I backed it for the fighting game aspect. I don't care about the story but I'm worried for the people who backed it for the story. This game has 6 characters so there's only a total of 5 or possible fights for each characters depending on if there's a boss or not. And I doubt there are good reasons for all of them to fight each other.
 
Top