1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Them's Fightin' Herds is now out on Early Access!
    You can buy it from these links.
    Humble Bundle // Steam

  3. Mane6 is currently hiring!
    We have an open position for a 2D (Pixel) Artist to help with Them's Fightin' Herds' Story mode/Pixel Lobby. Details here

  4. Current Early Access Patch: 11-5-2018+ Hotfix 11-5-18.a

Tianhuo 4D j.A Is a bit silly. (And some thoughts on her Magic.)

Discussion in 'Tianhuo' started by Candel, May 31, 2018.

  1. Candel

    Candel sleepyhoers

    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    4
    With the newest changes, Tianhuo's j.A has become a high-hitting move that doesn't have as low of a hitbox anymore. Before this change, most Tian players would use 4D j.B as a pressure tool. This made it a quick overhead, being 18f if inputted as fast as possible. 18f is pretty fast for an overhead, and was the fastest in the game, compared to all of the other overheads that could be cancelled into. It was the fastest overhead, was safe on block, moved forward enough to advance after pushblock, and could even cross the opponent up if they were crouching. It was already a ridiculously powerful tool on its own, being so safe and hard to react to in netplay.

    With the latest patch, j.A has now become a high-hitting move, and it's faster than j.B. Tians did not use 4D j.A before, as it didn't hit high and therefore didn't have a chance of succeeding. Now, 4D j.A has all of the strengths of j.B that were listed, with one big difference. When inputted as fast as possible, it is a 14 frame overhead.

    Whether this was intentional or merely an oversight of making j.A a high, I don't know, but 14 frames is ridiculous for an overhead. Especially one that you can cancel into, and is safe on block. I don't know what the input delay is like in TFH, but most games tend to have about 4-6 frames of delay. Average human reaction time to visuals is 0.25 seconds, or 15f on its own. Fighting game players will likely be able to react faster, and it would also be easier to react if you had sound enabled, as reaction time is faster when it comes to audio stimulus. However, it's more important for overheads to be visually reactable, as it is not feasible to rely on audio cues when playing on a setup at a tournament, and many players also play with sound disabled.

    Accounting for input delay, the minor delay you'd get from your controller of choice and your monitor, the input lag from netplay that you'd likely have, and human reaction time, 14f is pretty much unreactable, if not totally unreactable based on your average reaction time. It's already faster than average human reaction time, and if the game as even 4f of input delay, you'd have to react to 4D and block it 10 frames into its animation. People tend to consider Arizona 6B to be difficult to react to, and even before this j.A change, 4D j.B was faster and safer. Now Tianhuo has a totally bonkers overhead that she can cancel into, can cross up, advances very far forward, is safe to whiff after pushblock, and leads to pressure on block and high damage on hit. I believe this is a problem.

    An argument could be made that this is fine, because it costs resources to use, but I think that point is a bad one. Tianhuo generates magic for free, and she does it quickly. She generates it when she's getting hit, when she's jumping and airdashing around, when she's comboing you. She only doesn't generate it when she's flying, and even then it just pauses her generation. She doesn't need to earn it, and the benefits of her magic are insane, giving her even better mobility, reversal options, mixups, high "meterless" damage, and a ridiculous overhead. The only way I'd see it being fair for her to have such a powerful overhead is if her magic were actually a challenge to generate, or if her generation was slower/didn't happen when she's being combo'd. And even then, it wouldn't be fair, because 14 frames is actually unreactable to most human beings.

    Again, I don't know if this is an unforeseen consequence of j.A being changed, and with how ridiculously strong it is, I don't see it being intentional. 4D j.B was already the fastest, safest, most ridiculous overhead in the game, and now it has an even more powerful counterpart. The fact that it can be cancelled into makes it extremely powerful, as it can be done during any string, and you pretty much cannot react in time. Tianhuo has pretty ridiculous burst damage when she has meter, and she builds magic so quickly and for free, that if you're at 50% on last round and she's hitting you with a blockstring, chances are you're probably going to die to an unreactable overhead into a large combo. I really think this should be toned down.

    tl;dr

    Basically, 4D j.B was already extremely strong, and now 4D j.A is borderline broken. The fact that they cost resources doesn't matter because Tianhuo always has magic. I mostly believe 4D overheads should be toned down, at least j.A, and on the side, I believe her magic generates too quickly and should probably stop generating while she's being combo'd.

    I know I complain about Tianhuo a lot, but if any character had a 14f overhead, I'd still have an issue with it.
     
    Korencz11 and Unonemous like this.
  2. Oreo

    Oreo Keepin' It Stylish
    Staff Member Mane6 QA

    Messages:
    268
    Likes Received:
    404
    Should be the same as Skullgirls, which is way less than this.
     
  3. Candel

    Candel sleepyhoers

    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    4
    A little addition/clarification, I actually learned that it's not truly 14f, it's more like... still 18f. j.A doesn't hit til its 5th active frame on crouchers when done immediately, so.

    Things are not AS ridiculous as I thought. But the 18f safe overhead that extends pressure and crosses up is still a thing. Which is still pretty strong, considering she regenerates magic so fast.