• Them's Fightin' Herds is now out on Early Access!
    You can buy it from these links.
    Humble Bundle // Steam

  • Them's Fightin' Herds

    Current Version: Early Access 17.2: 7.8.2019

The Predators side of the Story?

CrystalBlazier

Spirit of the Plains Backer
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 3, 2016
49
31
www.youtube.com
So we all know that the Predators are the main villains of the game. But their banishment appears to be rather harsh.

Lauren Faust even gave into detail on one of the steams here that the Predators see their prison, The Hold, as a horrible place they're trying to escape from. One of the possibilities is that, while they were confined in there, they have been eating each other and their own young in order to survive as they age and die over the years.

What do you guys think of this? I mean, sure the Predators were terrorizing and eating the inhabitants of Foenum, but they had to eat too. And the Prophet banished them to an empty realm that has no food or water. To me, it's harsh.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SilentOxen

Lanxide

I wish I was cool
Feb 3, 2016
199
643
Melbourne Fl
What do you guys think of this?
Pretty fckin dark.

It does leave room open for speculation of predators having their own key holder trying to escape that hell hold once they detected the hold is weakening. Similar to the mane6 quest to prevent the hold from breaking.
 

Karilyn

Buttonmashing Scrub
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 6, 2016
51
63
Atlanta, GA
Lauren Faust IIRC said that the Predators aren't actually intelligent, that they are basically mindless destroying machines. From the way she pushed them, it seemed to me as if she was portraying them as almost Lovecraftian monsters. So I find it hard to feel any more sympathetic for their imprisonment than I would feel for Cthulhu.

And when you think about them like that, the whole "they had to eat too" argument starts to fall apart; I don't really care if Cthulhu needs to eat, I'd prefer if he was locked away and not terrorizing and eating the inhabitants of Earth.
 

Stunthead

Springbok when
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 3, 2016
309
798
New Zealand
I still like the justification Lauren gave during one of the streams. The idea was that the Ungulates sent over a few ambassadors to try to make some sort of arrangement with the Predators long before they were locked in the hold, and the predators just ate them all. As Lauren put it; "...What do you DO at that point?"

That said, the predators that did that are probably long dead, so that creates a sort of "Sins of our fathers" sort of situation. Moral ambiguity, ho!
 

Avering

Pew-Pew
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 3, 2016
1,280
1,137
25
Your soup
I personally would want to see a moral grey area in this game, rather than the usual black and white. Giving predators a good reason for being what they are could be interesting.
What if they were an intelligent society before the whole locked up thing, then slowly went mad in their prison?
What if it was only a small group of predators who were hunting ungulates, yet all of them got needlessly punished? And now they come back to take vengeance for their injustice.
 

CrpCrwls

This dim light which falls from the stars...
Feb 6, 2016
213
106
Well based on the lore questions asked on the streams the status of the predators who weren't a menace for the ungulate is still undecided, they might not be emprisoned in the hold with the others. And apparently the ungulate tried to send emissary to find a peaceful solution before but they got eaten.

Personnaly I don't know, I do like grey area but I feel like we have less and less truly evil villains in fiction. There is something to be said about having actual Bad Guys who don't and won't get reformed.
 

CrystalBlazier

Spirit of the Plains Backer
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 3, 2016
49
31
www.youtube.com
Smaller predators like small snakes, insects scorpions, and the sheepdogs weren't banished to The Hold, since they aren't that big of a threat.
 

Terodeness

Backers' Beta Tester
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 4, 2016
65
17
Czech Republic
Ah, so Predators aren't intelignet creatures, then? Hmm... *Brainstorming* But what about those scouts! They were speaking! *Brainstorming intensifies* What if you born inteligent as a predator, but the more you are stronger the more your soul become feral and evil?
But I'm speaking of inteligence on very basic level, something on a level of goblins, orks etc...

EDIT:
Oh and:

...From the way she pushed them, it seemed to me as if she was portraying them as almost Lovecraftian monsters. So I find it hard to feel any more sympathetic for their imprisonment than I would feel for Cthulhu...
You know, I LOVE Lovecraftian's horrors and it's damn tempting idea! :D
 
Last edited:

JimmyJones09

Backers' Beta Tester
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 4, 2016
10
3
Let's be realistic here about things and foremost before romanticizing the situation. While it's unsure where the predators stand entirely besides snippets of lore we've gotten from these kinds of questions. The fact remains that these creatures will eat THE creatures that we play as. When you have predator vs prey, the statement on where both sides stand is pretty clear. Especially when it seems like there is no domesticated or non-sapient herbivore in the foenum universe as far as I'm aware. So looking at the facts of the moment, things seem pretty clear cut and dry to me. It's THEM or US. KILL or BE KILLED.
 

Rayne-The-Skunk

Dark Side Artist
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 3, 2016
25
75
JimmyJones is right.

Putting the predators in the hold is not a matter of morality or if the Herbivores are bad guys for locking entire races away. Its just a matter of survival.
Its not like when there's another country you don't like cause they're different. The Predators no matter how good of guys they might have been HAVE to eat herbivores and trying to turn it into a moral point or make herbivores look like bad guys is an incredibly silly point.

That said I am very interested in what a bunch of people did a lifeless void for a thousand years in the mean time.
 

Mighty Alicorn Hunter

Predator Representative of the Darkside
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 4, 2016
528
149
The Council
JimmyJones is right.

Putting the predators in the hold is not a matter of morality or if the Herbivores are bad guys for locking entire races away. Its just a matter of survival.
Its not like when there's another country you don't like cause they're different. The Predators no matter how good of guys they might have been HAVE to eat herbivores and trying to turn it into a moral point or make herbivores look like bad guys is an incredibly silly point.

That said I am very interested in what a bunch of people did a lifeless void for a thousand years in the mean time.
Actually there seems to be more herbivores than just the intelligent ungulates, such as rodents. I don't know if there's a large enough population to support the predators, but it's better than no food at all like they have in the hold. You may think it's outrageous to believe the predators could survive this way, but I'll remind you that sheepdogs and sheep live in peace because of the rodent population.
 

JimmyJones09

Backers' Beta Tester
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 4, 2016
10
3
Actually there seems to be more herbivores than just the intelligent ungulates, such as rodents. I don't know if there's a large enough population to support the predators, but it's better than no food at all like they have in the hold. You may think it's outrageous to believe the predators could survive this way, but I'll remind you that sheepdogs and sheep live in peace because of the rodent population.
However, this falls into the kind of murky, hypothetical, and part of it since we don't know exactly what the numbers of these creatures are. If the number of these creatures were high enough in the first place, then the predators could've maybe avoided being locked up in the first place. Regarding the sheepdogs, they are domesticated, and would probably be much easier to deal with in terms of the food situation. We put down erratic dog populations in our own society quite well enough I think. Yet the point that it's Herbivore VS Predator still stands though, because even if a secondary food source exists, eventually you'll run into complications. These are all small animals you're talking about, and the predator population would be forever limited in scope and food if they were to live this way. Eventually any kind of diplomatic relations would and could break down as the predator population spirals out of control. The beginnings of a mass famine for their kind could lead to the killing of sapient life in order to preserve their own. Which is possibly why they got sealed up in the first place anyway. On the other hoof, herbivores will never be limited, as they're free to eat the grass and plant life they've been nourishing on. Their civilizations could prosper without difficulty while the source of meat is always a worry for the carnivores. Not to mention the fact that these predators have no reason to seek diplomatic relations with our cutesy herbivores in the first place. Because, as far as I'm aware, Foenum has been waiting for this escape to basically stomp the hand that is reaching out the door back in. Whether it's out of fear or bias, I don't think that would fly. Would something that is your natural instinct to kill be something you want to talk to peacefully when it is trying to lock you up and never let you out? Think of all the lower class predators that probably died out in the existing struggle to survive. You'd eventually have the most bad ass, scarred, and skilled predators as the only survivors. Who will pass their brood off to the next generation which will squabble and fight just as hard. Is that any existence worth going back to? No, you'd probably kill them and then domesticate them like it's already tried to do with your own food pyramid, (Ruff and the gang). Like the way your life has been for a thousand years, I rest my case, this is getting long.
 

Mighty Alicorn Hunter

Predator Representative of the Darkside
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 4, 2016
528
149
The Council
However, this falls into the kind of murky, hypothetical, and part of it since we don't know exactly what the numbers of these creatures are. If the number of these creatures were high enough in the first place, then the predators could've maybe avoided being locked up in the first place. Regarding the sheepdogs, they are domesticated, and would probably be much easier to deal with in terms of the food situation. We put down erratic dog populations in our own society quite well enough I think. Yet the point that it's Herbivore VS Predator still stands though, because even if a secondary food source exists, eventually you'll run into complications. These are all small animals you're talking about, and the predator population would be forever limited in scope and food if they were to live this way. Eventually any kind of diplomatic relations would and could break down as the predator population spirals out of control. The beginnings of a mass famine for their kind could lead to the killing of sapient life in order to preserve their own. Which is possibly why they got sealed up in the first place anyway. On the other hoof, herbivores will never be limited, as they're free to eat the grass and plant life they've been nourishing on. Their civilizations could prosper without difficulty while the source of meat is always a worry for the carnivores. Not to mention the fact that these predators have no reason to seek diplomatic relations with our cutesy herbivores in the first place. Because, as far as I'm aware, Foenum has been waiting for this escape to basically stomp the hand that is reaching out the door back in. Whether it's out of fear or bias, I don't think that would fly. Would something that is your natural instinct to kill be something you want to talk to peacefully when it is trying to lock you up and never let you out? Think of all the lower class predators that probably died out in the existing struggle to survive. You'd eventually have the most bad ass, scarred, and skilled predators as the only survivors. Who will pass their brood off to the next generation which will squabble and fight just as hard. Is that any existence worth going back to? No, you'd probably kill them and then domesticate them like it's already tried to do with your own food pyramid, (Ruff and the gang). Like the way your life has been for a thousand years, I rest my case, this is getting long.
Ironically, I have to question how the ungulates have survived so long. You have to think about how limited grass actually is, and think about how deer have had times where they almost wiped out their own food sources in real life when predators were hunted out by humans. The only explanation I could have is the same one that humans have, war. Also you seem to think that the realistic course of action for the predators would be to attack the ungulates, but really, if some race of creatures opened a portal to hell and threw you in, you'd probably more afraid of it then anything.
 

JimmyJones09

Backers' Beta Tester
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 4, 2016
10
3
Ironically, I have to question how the ungulates have survived so long. You have to think about how limited grass actually is, and think about how deer have had times where they almost wiped out their own food sources in real life when predators were hunted out by humans. The only explanation I could have is the same one that humans have, war. Also you seem to think that the realistic course of action for the predators would be to attack the ungulates, but really, if some race of creatures opened a portal to hell and threw you in, you'd probably more afraid of it then anything.
Why would you fear what you eat? Also, again, these predators probably fought and scrapped for the thousand of years they existed in that hellish land. Unlike the Ungulates, which are sapient, and are perfectly capable of agriculture so their food situation is settled pretty easily. Predators probably fear NOTHING by this point, and the only thing that would exist is a... take it away skull face.
The predator's, that's who. War between herbivores seems baffingly unlikely given their casualness with throwing one individual members of their species to drive the predators back into literal hell.
 

Mighty Alicorn Hunter

Predator Representative of the Darkside
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 4, 2016
528
149
The Council
Why would you fear what you eat? Also, again, these predators probably fought and scrapped for the thousand of years they existed in that hellish land. Unlike the Ungulates, which are sapient, and are perfectly capable of agriculture so their food situation is settled pretty easily. Predators probably fear NOTHING by this point, and the only thing that would exist is a... take it away skull face.
The predator's, that's who. War between herbivores seems baffingly unlikely given their casualness with throwing one individual members of their species to drive the predators back into literal hell.
They'd fear prey because said prey stole their homes and quite literally opened a portal to hell and threw them inside. Predators are intelligent enough to speak and I quite frankly wouldn't blame them for wanting vengeance against such an atrocious form of "justice". I find cooperation to be possible in this situation, especially because it already happened. As for thinking that there must have been wars, the ungulates had to have a population control of some sort, or they would have already eaten Foenum into a desert world.
 

JimmyJones09

Backers' Beta Tester
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 4, 2016
10
3
They'd fear prey because said prey stole their homes and quite literally opened a portal to hell and threw them inside. Predators are intelligent enough to speak and I quite frankly wouldn't blame them for wanting vengeance against such an atrocious form of "justice". I find cooperation to be possible in this situation, especially because it already happened. As for thinking that there must have been wars, the ungulates had to have a population control of some sort, or they would have already eaten Foenum into a desert world.
Err... do you not know how agriculture works? You plant seeds, vegetables rise up, and you mix up the type of seed planted. The soil never goes bad from such planting and the land can always be re-used. It's kind of baffling how you just assume they'd eat themselves into a desert world, (which they would if they weren't sapient). And regarding the predators vs herbivores, I've made all the points I can regarding that. It's just a personal issue and I'd be arguing old ground if I continued. Although I will say that the sheep dogs don't co-exist so much as they're domesticated. The puppies and the sheep co-exist to fight against enemies they'd normally be weaker against. But, the sheep seem to have the final say and the dogs don't seem to mind this much. Dogs by nature aren't really predators unless they starve or go feral anyway. The final word in my opinion would be that if something threw you into hell, Co-operation is probably not something it ever wanted with you.
 

Mighty Alicorn Hunter

Predator Representative of the Darkside
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 4, 2016
528
149
The Council
Err... do you not know how agriculture works? You plant seeds, vegetables rise up, and you mix up the type of seed planted. The soil never goes bad from such planting and the land can always be re-used. It's kind of baffling how you just assume they'd eat themselves into a desert world, (which they would if they weren't sapient). And regarding the predators vs herbivores, I've made all the points I can regarding that. It's just a personal issue and I'd be arguing old ground if I continued. Although I will say that the sheep dogs don't co-exist so much as they're domesticated. The puppies and the sheep co-exist to fight against enemies they'd normally be weaker against. But, the sheep seem to have the final say and the dogs don't seem to mind this much. Dogs by nature aren't really predators unless they starve or go feral anyway. The final word in my opinion would be that if something threw you into hell, Co-operation is probably not something it ever wanted with you.
The problem with what you said is that agriculture has a limit, and humans with all our advances and all the death from each other and disease are nearing that limit, and you're telling me that a world without violence in medieval to tribal levels of technology did not in 1000+ years? That seems more than doubtful. Plus, I'm sure they had at least one pseudo star wars war (light magic vs dark magic). I couldn't care less about how the ungulates feel about the predators or the predators feel about the ungulates, it is wrong to wipe out another species, let along several dozen. Planting the predators in the hold is more or less equivalent to wiping them out through starvation.
 

CrpCrwls

This dim light which falls from the stars...
Feb 6, 2016
213
106
I haven't read everything you two have said, I barely skimmed throug it in fact, but I want to point out that Lauren has said during a stream that there is no benefit to having predators in Foenum because the ungulates are apparently far better at regulating their own population than humans have been. They just don't allow it to grow enough to threaten their food sources.
 

Mighty Alicorn Hunter

Predator Representative of the Darkside
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 4, 2016
528
149
The Council
I haven't read everything you two have said, I barely skimmed throug it in fact, but I want to point out that Lauren has said during a stream that there is no benefit to having predators in Foenum because the ungulates are apparently far better at regulating their own population than humans have been. They just don't allow it to grow enough to threaten their food sources.
I still am opposed to wiping out the predators. Didn't wipe out the deathclaws, definitely gonna at least let the predators give their side before deciding to wipe them out or not.
 

OCisbestungulate

Always watching you
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 3, 2016
1,885
1,383
behind your curtains
I'm actually rather liking the idea of the Predators being something akin to a mindless force of destruction. It makes the gravity of the situation all the more intense. And it also simplifies things. Though, I'll admit, I'm the kind of fellow who likes it when villains are evil (tho not too evil, as those villains are a bit intense).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Terodeness

Mighty Alicorn Hunter

Predator Representative of the Darkside
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 4, 2016
528
149
The Council
I'm actually rather liking the idea of the Predators being something akin to a mindless force of destruction. It makes the gravity of the situation all the more intense. And it also simplifies things. Though, I'll admit, I'm the kind of fellow who likes it when villains are evil (tho not too evil, as those villains are a bit intense).
But if predators were mindless then they wouldn't talk. :)
 

CrpCrwls

This dim light which falls from the stars...
Feb 6, 2016
213
106
But if predators were mindless then they wouldn't talk. :)
Actually... well I remember that one story where the narrator was chased by an entity, it appeared to be talking and it was eating his memories so you'd have though it was sentient, and probably rather smart, but then he found notes left by a research team saying that no it isn't, the creature itself is pretty much mindless it's just producing a very convincing simulacre using the information he has eaten to keep it's prey busy.

Though, I'll admit, I'm the kind of fellow who likes it when villains are evil (tho not too evil, as those villains are a bit intense).
I understand this point of view so much. I feel like true villains are dissapearing from our stories, now most of the time they have a tragic past, or they are insane so it's not really their fault, or you can redeem them... mind you I can appreciate a well made tragic villain, insane or not, and a good redemption story can certainly be interesting, especially if you insist on the struggle to become a better person. It's just that it's becoming hard to find an actual bad guy in fiction...
 

Feanor

Proud Velveeta
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 3, 2016
490
300
Earth
Now this is my kind of debate. Walls of text and essay-length dissections of cartoon-animal-fighting-game-lore! But no seriously, I like this.

Having read through that long argument between JimmyJones and Mighty Alicorn, I think both made good points, and both perhaps missed some. More specifically, while I don't buy for a second the idea of Predators surviving on rodents for any period of time, I think you folks are missing the obvious solution here. There doesn't NEED to be 'peace' to co-exist. We have - in fact - seen it in our own world since the dawn of time. Herbivores survive on plants, Predators survive on herbivores. It is a balance. Jimmy's argument that the imprisonment of the Predators was an act of survival doesn't hold up to me, because this cycle has been shown to be completely sustainable for our world.

Ofcourse, the fact that these are sapient races does muddy the issue a bit, but I don't think it changes it. Sure, herbivores might not LIKE having to worry about their kids getting eaten any time they roam too far from the village, but on the larger scale, it is really the lesser of the two evils, isn't it? I don't think their dietary needs would come close to outrunning the herbivore population, if our own world is any indication. Predators have to eat meat to survive, Herbivores need grass. Should we lock them in the Hold to protect all that innocent flora?

The only way this system gets out of balance is if the Predators are stupid enough to try to make an all out war that would eliminate the Herbivores completely. I choose to believe they are not this short-sighted. They are talking, sapient creatures, and even considering the possibility that they ARE stupid enough for that, I don't believe such an effort would last beyond the point where the army had to split up. They would devolve into autonomous packs and fight each-other over territory as much as the prey.

In the end, I imagine they would end up living in territorial packs that would prey on unwary Ungulates who traveled alone or small villages at worst. This is a system I could see being sustainable for both sides, and a much better solution than either of them being locked in hell to eat themselves to extinction. It would also ofcourse make for a much more interesting lore, without a black and white, irrevocable ending-- leaving lots of possibilities for future expansion!
 

JimmyJones09

Backers' Beta Tester
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 4, 2016
10
3
Now this is my kind of debate. Walls of text and essay-length dissections of cartoon-animal-fighting-game-lore! But no seriously, I like this.

Having read through that long argument between JimmyJones and Mighty Alicorn, I think both made good points, and both perhaps missed some. More specifically, while I don't buy for a second the idea of Predators surviving on rodents for any period of time, I think you folks are missing the obvious solution here. There doesn't NEED to be 'peace' to co-exist. We have - in fact - seen it in our own world since the dawn of time. Herbivores survive on plants, Predators survive on herbivores. It is a balance. Jimmy's argument that the imprisonment of the Predators was an act of survival doesn't hold up to me, because this cycle has been shown to be completely sustainable for our world.

Ofcourse, the fact that these are sapient races does muddy the issue a bit, but I don't think it changes it. Sure, herbivores might not LIKE having to worry about their kids getting eaten any time they roam too far from the village, but on the larger scale, it is really the lesser of the two evils, isn't it? I don't think their dietary needs would come close to outrunning the herbivore population, if our own world is any indication. Predators have to eat meat to survive, Herbivores need grass. Should we lock them in the Hold to protect all that innocent flora?

The only way this system gets out of balance is if the Predators are stupid enough to try to make an all out war that would eliminate the Herbivores completely. I choose to believe they are not this short-sighted. They are talking, sapient creatures, and even considering the possibility that they ARE stupid enough for that, I don't believe such an effort would last beyond the point where the army had to split up. They would devolve into autonomous packs and fight each-other over territory as much as the prey.

In the end, I imagine they would end up living in territorial packs that would prey on unwary Ungulates who traveled alone or small villages at worst. This is a system I could see being sustainable for both sides, and a much better solution than either of them being locked in hell to eat themselves to extinction. It would also ofcourse make for a much more interesting lore, without a black and white, irrevocable ending-- leaving lots of possibilities for future expansion!
But doesn't that justify what foenum is trying to do completely then? It's true that the predator's and prey could exist in the same environment as they do that just fine in our world, yes. But the thing is the herbivores don't want that, that's the whole plot of the game. They're sending their strongest fighter to keep them trapped. And when I personally think about the idea of having a child, then said child gets eaten at some point. I'd be pretty upset, and have a realization that the predator's don't really benefit me would pretty easily reach me. The predators in Foenum are just a hindrance to the herbivores since it's not like real life where they'd serve a benefit.


The problem with what you said is that agriculture has a limit, and humans with all our advances and all the death from each other and disease are nearing that limit, and you're telling me that a world without violence in medieval to tribal levels of technology did not in 1000+ years? That seems more than doubtful. Plus, I'm sure they had at least one pseudo star wars war (light magic vs dark magic). I couldn't care less about how the ungulates feel about the predators or the predators feel about the ungulates, it is wrong to wipe out another species, let along several dozen. Planting the predators in the hold is more or less equivalent to wiping them out through starvation.
But the thing with that is I don't see a war ever happening even over a thousand years simply because it wouldn't make any sense. All these animals live in different types of biomes and carry different cultures. War in itself is just more than beating the shit out of each other like in this game. And as far as I'm aware, they have made no tools to kill anything or subject each other. The in-game universe also looks cutesy so naturally one would assume that something as bad as war isn't occurring. War is in itself a human thing, animals do not declare war and more importantly, the Foenums are probably most useful to each other alive than dead. Things like trade and prosperity between nations seems more possible for them than for us. Also, on the note of predators and them being wiped out, why not? It's not like you would want to talk with what eats you, but you won't kill them with your bare hooves like a man. That's why we have this kind of hell to send them all too. It works out just fine, the herbivores get to live a life of peace and stability with each other. The predators get the metaphorical shaft when it comes to that sort of thing. Because they have the bad habit of EATING people.
 

Mighty Alicorn Hunter

Predator Representative of the Darkside
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 4, 2016
528
149
The Council
But doesn't that justify what foenum is trying to do completely then? It's true that the predator's and prey could exist in the same environment as they do that just fine in our world, yes. But the thing is the herbivores don't want that, that's the whole plot of the game. They're sending their strongest fighter to keep them trapped. And when I personally think about the idea of having a child, then said child gets eaten at some point. I'd be pretty upset, and have a realization that the predator's don't really benefit me would pretty easily reach me. The predators in Foenum are just a hindrance to the herbivores since it's not like real life where they'd serve a benefit.




But the thing with that is I don't see a war ever happening even over a thousand years simply because it wouldn't make any sense. All these animals live in different types of biomes and carry different cultures. War in itself is just more than beating the shit out of each other like in this game. And as far as I'm aware, they have made no tools to kill anything or subject each other. The in-game universe also looks cutesy so naturally one would assume that something as bad as war isn't occurring. War is in itself a human thing, animals do not declare war and more importantly, the Foenums are probably most useful to each other alive than dead. Things like trade and prosperity between nations seems more possible for them than for us. Also, on the note of predators and them being wiped out, why not? It's not like you would want to talk with what eats you, but you won't kill them with your bare hooves like a man. That's why we have this kind of hell to send them all too. It works out just fine, the herbivores get to live a life of peace and stability with each other. The predators get the metaphorical shaft when it comes to that sort of thing. Because they have the bad habit of EATING people.
It's not a "habit", it's a biological requirement. It'd be like blaming vampires for drinking blood. Granted that it'd be much harder to find a safe solution of coexistence but the idea is the same. You can't blame someone for choosing to not commit suicide to save those they need to feed upon in order to survive. Also about the war thing, I'm pretty sure a militaristic race who has a majority of it's population in the army such as the longma have went to war at least once, otherwise their society makes no sense because there's literally no danger on their entire planet that requires a standing army.
 
Last edited:

Feanor

Proud Velveeta
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 3, 2016
490
300
Earth
But doesn't that justify what foenum is trying to do completely then? It's true that the predator's and prey could exist in the same environment as they do that just fine in our world, yes. But the thing is the herbivores don't want that, that's the whole plot of the game. They're sending their strongest fighter to keep them trapped. And when I personally think about the idea of having a child, then said child gets eaten at some point. I'd be pretty upset, and have a realization that the predator's don't really benefit me would pretty easily reach me. The predators in Foenum are just a hindrance to the herbivores since it's not like real life where they'd serve a benefit.
I seem to have confused another persons post with yours in the course of reading your argument. Namely the one below:
JimmyJones is right.

Putting the predators in the hold is not a matter of morality or if the Herbivores are bad guys for locking entire races away. Its just a matter of survival.
Its not like when there's another country you don't like cause they're different. The Predators no matter how good of guys they might have been HAVE to eat herbivores and trying to turn it into a moral point or make herbivores look like bad guys is an incredibly silly point.
This is what I was responding too for the most part. As a moral issue, I think the Predators have the right of it from a neutral perspective, due to the reasons I mentioned in my last post. But if you are simply saying that the Ungulates actions are justified from their OWN viewpoint, than sure, absolutely. If I was a Cow and there were wolves out in the woods always waiting to kill me or my children I would be all for the Hold too, most likely. If we were playing as Predators, I would say they are equally justified, but we are not, so it is a moot point.

That said, I do think that the game itself would be far more interesting from a lore perspective if we saw this result of non-peaceful co-existence rather than everyone locked in the Hold.

War is in itself a human thing, animals do not declare war and more importantly, the Foenums are probably most useful to each other alive than dead.
As a note, this doesn't really apply in my opinion. Sure, humans are the only animals to have 'war' on our planet, but we are also the only sapient creatures here. It's no coincidence that Chimpanzees have had tribal battles that come close to the definition, and they are the next most intelligent species to us. All animals have territorial and mating disputes, it is only because they are not sapient that these things don't escalate into massive concerted 'war efforts' like ours.
 
Last edited:

JimmyJones09

Backers' Beta Tester
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 4, 2016
10
3
It's not a "habit", it's a biological requirement. It'd be like blaming vampires for drinking blood. Granted that it'd be much harder to find a safe solution of coexistence but the idea is the same. You can't blame someone for choosing to not commit suicide to save those they need to feed upon in order to survive. Also about the war thing, I'm pretty sure a militaristic race who has a majority of it's population in the army such as the longma have went to war at least once, otherwise their society makes no sense because there's literally no danger on their entire planet that requires a standing army.
"habit" implies their need in a jokeful manner which implies I'm not really taking a lot of this seriously. I like to keep it casual while keeping my points fair and my opinion from mocking or insulting yours. Also, about the Longma thing, I suppose? I cant' really argue whether or not they've gone to war as the lore on this matter is bare bones. It'd be like arguing the strongest opinion based on scraps.


I seem to have confused another persons post with yours in the course of reading your argument. Namely the one below:

This is what I was responding too for the most part. As a moral issue, I think the Predators have the right of it from a neutral perspective, due to the reasons I mentioned in my last post. But if you are simply saying that the Ungulates actions are justified from their OWN viewpoint, than sure, absolutely. If I was a Cow and there were wolves out in the woods always waiting to kill me or my children I would be all for the Hold too, most likely. If we were playing as Predators, I would say they are equally justified, but we are not, so it is a moot point.

That said, I do think that the game itself would be far more interesting from a lore perspective if we saw this result of non-peaceful co-existence rather than everyone locked in the Hold.

As a note, this doesn't really apply in my opinion. Sure, humans are the only animals to have 'war' on our planet, but we are also the only sapient creatures here. It's no coincidence that Chimpanzees have had tribal battles that come close to the definition, and they are the next most intelligent species to us. All animals have territorial and mating disputes, it is only because they are not sapient that these things don't escalate into massive concerted 'war efforts' like ours.
Since we play AS the ungulates, then yes, I find that we are perfectly justified in killing the predators off.

In regards to the wars thing it's an assumption based off the culture of all the beings present in the universe. There is no evidence to back up my assertion, but overall none of the races strike me as particularly war-like. They all seem very defensive of their ideas and cultures, and in the case of Longma, they probably keep their military strong for threats rather than conquering. At least, that's my opinion as of the moment.
 

Mighty Alicorn Hunter

Predator Representative of the Darkside
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 4, 2016
528
149
The Council
"habit" implies their need in a jokeful manner which implies I'm not really taking a lot of this seriously. I like to keep it casual while keeping my points fair and my opinion from mocking or insulting yours. Also, about the Longma thing, I suppose? I cant' really argue whether or not they've gone to war as the lore on this matter is bare bones. It'd be like arguing the strongest opinion based on scraps.




Since we play AS the ungulates, then yes, I find that we are perfectly justified in killing the predators off.

In regards to the wars thing it's an assumption based off the culture of all the beings present in the universe. There is no evidence to back up my assertion, but overall none of the races strike me as particularly war-like. They all seem very defensive of their ideas and cultures, and in the case of Longma, they probably keep their military strong for threats rather than conquering. At least, that's my opinion as of the moment.
Sorry, I just can't justify what would amount to genocide, even if the predators wouldn't be 'useful' for the other races within Foenum. I hereby take a bow from this conversation.
 

JimmyJones09

Backers' Beta Tester
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 4, 2016
10
3
Sorry, I just can't justify what would amount to genocide, even if the predators wouldn't be 'useful' for the other races within Foenum. I hereby take a bow from this conversation.
That's cool, I mean, we're talking about fictional characters in a fictional universe, so, genocide works just fine with me.
 

CrpCrwls

This dim light which falls from the stars...
Feb 6, 2016
213
106
Who know, maybe in the end instead of just keeping the predators in the Hold they will throw them in another dimension where they're needed like a planet with an overgrown population of non-sapient herbivores about to consume all their food sources, or maybe there is a dimension somewhere where meat grows on trees.
 

Karilyn

Buttonmashing Scrub
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 6, 2016
51
63
Atlanta, GA
Actually there seems to be more herbivores than just the intelligent ungulates, such as rodents. I don't know if there's a large enough population to support the predators, but it's better than no food at all like they have in the hold. You may think it's outrageous to believe the predators could survive this way, but I'll remind you that sheepdogs and sheep live in peace because of the rodent population.
You know, now that you mention it, I'm sorta wondering if the predators as being serial killer evil, like, enjoying the suffering of the things they kill and eat.

"Why... why do you have to eat us? Why can't you eat rodents, or birds, or something that doesn't talk?"

"Oh, I could cute little Pom, and sometimes I do if I have to... but nothing tastes a delicious as the succulent terror of a screaming little lamb as you rip them apart one limb at a time, savoring it, keeping them alive... Food just doesn't taste as good when they aren't begging for mercy. The more you scream the sooner it'll be over. Don't worry, I'll take your puppies under my wing, and help raise them to be true predators, instead of weak little slaves that they are now. I know you love them, so I'll be sure to feed them some of your bones, so as to help train them to love the taste of sheep."

You know, something like the Disney version of Hannibal Lecter style insanity. And the sheep dogs (plus any other carnivorous species that weren't locked away, like rodents) stand out for not being psychopathically evil. *shrug*
 
Last edited:

Feanor

Proud Velveeta
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 3, 2016
490
300
Earth
You know, now that you mention it, I'm sorta wondering if the predators as being serial killer evil, like, enjoying the suffering of the things they kill and eat.

"Why... why do you have to eat us? Why can't you eat rodents, or birds, or something that doesn't talk?"

"Oh, I could cute little Pom, and sometimes I do if I have to... but nothing tastes a delicious as the succulent terror of a screaming little lamb as you rip them apart one limb at a time, savoring it, keeping them alive... Food just doesn't taste as good when they aren't begging for mercy. The more you scream the sooner it'll be over. Don't worry, I'll take your puppies under my wing, and help raise them to be true predators, instead of weak little slaves that they are now. I know you love them, so I'll be sure to feed them some of your bones, so as to help train them to love the taste of sheep."

You know, something like the Disney version of Hannibal Lecter style insanity. And the sheep dogs (plus any other carnivorous species that weren't locked away, like rodents) stand out for not being psychopathically evil. *shrug*
I'd be fine with this for some of them, though I don't think they should all be this way.

P.S. Love the dialogue : P
 

OCisbestungulate

Always watching you
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 3, 2016
1,885
1,383
behind your curtains
You know, now that you mention it, I'm sorta wondering if the predators as being serial killer evil, like, enjoying the suffering of the things they kill and eat.

"Why... why do you have to eat us? Why can't you eat rodents, or birds, or something that doesn't talk?"

"Oh, I could cute little Pom, and sometimes I do if I have to... but nothing tastes a delicious as the succulent terror of a screaming little lamb as you rip them apart one limb at a time, savoring it, keeping them alive... Food just doesn't taste as good when they aren't begging for mercy. The more you scream the sooner it'll be over. Don't worry, I'll take your puppies under my wing, and help raise them to be true predators, instead of weak little slaves that they are now. I know you love them, so I'll be sure to feed them some of your bones, so as to help train them to love the taste of sheep."

You know, something like the Disney version of Hannibal Lecter style insanity. And the sheep dogs (plus any other carnivorous species that weren't locked away, like rodents) stand out for not being psychopathically evil. *shrug*
I approve of this :D

To be honest, methinks that would be a step too evil for a game that's meant to be family friendly. However, if they were that evil, then it certainly would explain the necessity of sealing them away. Though, I suppose it goes without saying, methinks that the in-game lore behind it is meant to be a bit less terrifying, and a bit more 'prey sealed away the preditors because they didn't like getting eaten'.

Lovely dialogue btw.
 

Mighty Alicorn Hunter

Predator Representative of the Darkside
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 4, 2016
528
149
The Council
You know, now that you mention it, I'm sorta wondering if the predators as being serial killer evil, like, enjoying the suffering of the things they kill and eat.

"Why... why do you have to eat us? Why can't you eat rodents, or birds, or something that doesn't talk?"

"Oh, I could cute little Pom, and sometimes I do if I have to... but nothing tastes a delicious as the succulent terror of a screaming little lamb as you rip them apart one limb at a time, savoring it, keeping them alive... Food just doesn't taste as good when they aren't begging for mercy. The more you scream the sooner it'll be over. Don't worry, I'll take your puppies under my wing, and help raise them to be true predators, instead of weak little slaves that they are now. I know you love them, so I'll be sure to feed them some of your bones, so as to help train them to love the taste of sheep."

You know, something like the Disney version of Hannibal Lecter style insanity. And the sheep dogs (plus any other carnivorous species that weren't locked away, like rodents) stand out for not being psychopathically evil. *shrug*
...something tells me a guy who goes by the name "Devourer" is about that evil, even among other predators, but I don't think the entirety of predator kind could even possibly be that sadistic. Really well written though.
 

Karilyn

Buttonmashing Scrub
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 6, 2016
51
63
Atlanta, GA
I approve of this :D

To be honest, methinks that would be a step too evil for a game that's meant to be family friendly. However, if they were that evil, then it certainly would explain the necessity of sealing them away. [...]

Lovely dialogue btw.
I might've gone a bit overboard *laughs*

Was trying to unleash my inner extra-evil Disney villain, get sorta a Cruella De Vile, Scar, Madame Medusa, Hades, Jafar, Sid Phillips, Pinnochio's Coachman... that sorta vibe. All the worst Disney had to offer for villains that loved playing with and tormenting your victims and displayed an astonishing disregard for life.

And apparently what I got when I tried to combine all of those was something a bit more scary than I intended :p

 
Apr 11, 2019
21
3
I'm not sure if this topic is dead, or otherwise official word has made it irrelevant, but I've been working on a headcannon. Er, take it as you will.

In brief, main issue was the predators nature. The bears and large cats found any negotiation beneath them. Both are quite solitary by nature and not much for empathy. Add to that, the bears were in contact with something not very nice. Maybe, it's ideas at this point.

In the wolves case, empathy they got, it's part of having packs. In their case it's more a cultural thing. A god most worshiped, the dark wolf, gifted them with fear as a weapon to hunt with. It's why they would surplus kill and terrify prey before running it down. In sort, if they were to make deals, they would lose that fear edge, perhaps even anger the dark wolf. For most wolves it wasn't a choice, there would be no peace.

Not that they were all bad, the blue wolf known as "the pack mother" was more for cooperation. When the omegas joined the sheep, to them they were now part of the sheep's pack(well, herd really).

Again, kinda work in progress and a headcannon. It did get me into reading a bunch here and there.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Feanor
Top