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  2. Them's Fightin' Herds is now out on Early Access!
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  3. 26.6.18: Situation update

    Current Early Access Patch: 8-18-2018

Shatter is Over Powered and this is why

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Korencz11, Aug 20, 2018.

  1. Korencz11

    Korencz11 Backers' Beta Tester
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    After the recent patch, it has occurred to me that not everyone understands why exactly they hate Shatter (A & C specifically), so today I'm going to clear that up.

    Shatter A is a back-swaying, high-crushing, 3/4ths of the screen, lingering low that can be cancelled into snowballs and linked into all of Velvet’s highly damaging combo routes. Despite it being 18 frames, in a game where you can make a frame trap in almost any string, makes this move outrageously good for what Velvet is supposed to do.

    Velvet for no reason, makes you not want to press buttons or rather, it’s preferred because of the amount of damage you take if you guess wrong or hesitate and she is designed in a way where you do want to counterattack her at some point because of eruption being +2 on block, 5B being 0 and the insane amount of grinding you will take from her trying to get back into the midrange. When you finally do get back to the midrange, you will probably evaporate in one combo if not, the next moment you don’t feel like getting further grinded into orange juice. Shatter A can also be used as meaty with 8 active frames to safely keep people in place with D’s where Velvet can avoid the risk of being counterattacked.


    Shatter B is actually fine besides MAYBE the Suki cancel Shatter B 3C loop in the combo that gives Velvet even more damage potential in the corner without the need for resources. With only 2 reps, Velvet can hit around 1.5 before actually hitting max JD for no resources. I don’t see why a zoning character has this but it’s not an issue and I really think Shatter B is fine from a design standpoint.


    Shatter C can be spaced and made completely safe on block by the use of snowballs or icicles. The bigger problem with this move is that there is no deadzone for it despite the character archetype. Examples of zoning characters like Hilda or Nu where there are dead-zones right in-front of the character and the majority of the recovery of this move is done in the air rather than Velvet recovering on the ground so you will often float Velvet instead of getting a full proper ground combo for maximum damage. The reward for this move hitting is way higher than any of the other characters in the game closest being to Arizona.
     
  2. Yeena

    Yeena DANCING YEEN, YOUNG AND SWEET, ONLY SEVENYEEN
    Backers' Beta Tester

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    Just going to pitch in my two cents, as an almost good Velvet player.

    Shat A back-sways and high-crushes to get Velvet away from her opponent, which is the whole point of her character. The only time I hit opponents with it raw is if they're not approaching carefully (and they SHOULD, since I could eruption them at any point and anyone should know to be wary of Velvet lows). Blockstrings into Shat A are true, and yeah, you can frame trap with D, but every character in this game is capable of frame-trapping, and Velvet spends a few of her precious resources in order to max out her damage... which got hit pretty hard last patch.

    Yeah, Velvet makes you not want to press buttons on approach. She's a zoner. You want to not press buttons on approach, or you want to be careful about them. The only ways she can instantly punish you are with D, which uses a resource, and with eruption, which is active for one frame and can be pretty easily avoided if you're careful.

    Friendly reminder you can't true blockstring into eruption A and can punish it pretty easily. I get punished for it all the time.

    The only time I ever hit people with Shat C is if they're turtling midscreen. It has thirty frames of startup (which is an eternity in fighting game time) and literally every character can punish it before it even comes out. No blockstring with Shat C is true and there's actually no reason to get hit by it if you're careful-- or even just learn to react faster. The damage on it is nowhere near as bad as it was and is so strong because it's a high risk, high reward option, similar to, say, Arizona counter-hit? Yes, it can be made safe on block, but that's part of the reason Velvet's non-magic projectiles work the way they do; she has literally no true mixups and limited pressure, so that's her way of going in on an opponent once she's cornered. By making her weak game somewhat safe so she has a chance of escaping reset heck.

    I'd also like to point out that shatters a and c are technically projectiles and the way they space and chip the opponent works exactly like projectiles should. But summoning that projectile unsafely leaves Velvet completely shutdown by a savvy player 2, just like I can't summon an icicle when I'm within, say, lasso or cartwheel range. The backspacing can also be a bad thing if you keep advancing your approach-- you can effectively make a weak Velvet corner herself.

    I'm sure Velvet could still use some tweaking (*cough*MagicDP*cough*) but her shatters are honestly fine imo. They're not super great but they work well with our glorious smugdeer and I wouldn't change much, if anything, about them.
     
  3. ph00tbag

    ph00tbag Backers' Beta Tester
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    Shatter A is pretty widely regarded as a necessary tool, since she has few other tools to return to range when she's stuck close to her opponent. On its own, it's tough to convert into anything more than 5D or oki, too, so it's actual damage output is kinda mediocre when compared to her actual pokes.

    Shatter C's particular effectiveness online is generally seen as a joke about lag and little more, particularly by players who spend most of their time playing in person, where 30 frames is enough time to grab a drink of water before pressing the button to punish. You can definitely up-back or block high in that time frame if you're spooked by a projectile.

    A dead zone on shatter C would be interesting in some way, but it would be really redundant. If you're right up next to Velvet when you see shatter C coming out, you can probably just hit 5A, or IB and hard punish.

    I think the nerfs to Velvet's chip and super damage are some good nerfs that address the things that were most degenerate about her. Maybe more nerfs are in order, but honestly, I'd love to see some overwhelming Velvet results before I agree that there's anything overpowered about her.
     
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  4. Yeena

    Yeena DANCING YEEN, YOUNG AND SWEET, ONLY SEVENYEEN
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    I want this tattooed on my body.
     
  5. ph00tbag

    ph00tbag Backers' Beta Tester
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    It would have to be on the back or something. It's quite a lot of text.
     
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  6. SouthernFox

    SouthernFox Are you ready to meet God?

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    Little advice from a fellow Arizona player who hasn't played in a little bit. But think anything is worth giving a listen to.

    Shatter A can be magic dashed. Especially in a blockstring. If it misses, they can't get the snowball out. Warp to the otherside, and you have enough time to punish with a stomp A. Countering in the hole of the string is also a good option. Not Magic headbuck because snowball will stuff you as a second hit. Without magic, there's not much you can do because of the snowflake afterwards, except super, and with Velvet's delaying their strings nowadays, it's risky.

    Same deal for Shatter C; Magic Dash and Counter. Stomp immediately after the magic dash into whatever you want to do. Fortunately, here, you can counterhit with a quick stomp, regardless of magic. You just need to block correctly to be able to get your punish.

    Please don't think you can approach Velvet for free. I, along with many other Arizona players, have been smacked in the face with Snowballs, Icicles, Eruptions, and even once I ran into a full on Super XD. She's a zoner, wait for your chances. They'll come.

    Now, yes, Velvet can make you feel like you don't want to press buttons against her, but that's what she's supposed to do. Velvet's icicles, snowballs, and eruptions are made to make things safe, but her true strings are full of holes. There comes a point where you've gotta stop respecting her, stop waiting for her to be the make the mistake, and show her that she's really just full of holes.




    ........also instant blocking is a thing. It helps.
     
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  7. Korencz11

    Korencz11 Backers' Beta Tester
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    :arishock: I think you might've missed the point here. It's not about dealing with shatter per say, but shatter A itself is particularly unbalanced because of the character it's attached to. Shatter C just doesn't belong as it is and I vehemently believe it's better than people give it credit for. Shatter B is fine, just weird for Velvet to have.

    It's super oppressive and difficult enough to deal with that it makes me want to not play the game at times, but nothing is impossible to deal with. Shatter just helps Velvet's kit in such a way that the rest of the cast can't compare with it, and Arizona is the only thing close to a counter against her.

    Those are good tips tbh, but in most situations I think 2D/4D is more effective since A correctly spaced 4D can catch ShatC and 2D can do the same for ShatA. You have to predict it for A since it's faster than Rope, but I get good mileage out of it.