1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Them's Fightin' Herds is now out on Early Access!
    You can buy it from these links.
    Humble Bundle // Steam

  3. Mane6 is currently hiring!
    We have an open position for a 2D (Pixel) Artist to help with Them's Fightin' Herds' Story mode/Pixel Lobby. Details here

  4. Current Early Access Patch: 11-5-2018+ Hotfix 11-5-18.a

Queries on Good, and the Gettin' thereof.

Discussion in 'Fighting Games' started by Snivian Moon, Feb 15, 2018.

  1. Snivian Moon

    Snivian Moon How I mine for combo?
    Backers' Beta Tester

    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    92
    Hello! Advanced apologies if this is the wrong place to be asking this question. I admit I'm a bit aimless.

    I've been super excited for TFH since I backed the project, but I'll admit I sort of let the beta slip by me for a long while. Part of me just wanted to experience the whole package as a complete work, rather than experience it update by update (And another part of me was super busy, because work, etc.). But alas, perhaps waiting was a mistake.

    I'm currently playing the beta now, with release imminent, and I have to say I'm impressed! But I also have to say: BOY do I suck!

    I realize fighting games are a difficult prospect to get into. I've dabbled in them for years on and off, to the point where I understand basic terminology, can execute moves well and pull off rudimentary combos. But when I play the beta, I just get my face smashed in by either the AI (normal and above trashes me) or any human player I encounter. It's never even a contest, like, to the point that I'm lucky to land a single hit. I usually just spend my time in the corner, furiously trying to tech, and failing.

    We all start somewhere, I realize! But what's starting to get to me is that, I'm beginning to realize I don't know how to learn in this situation. Usually with tough games, I can examine my failures, locate errors, and then try to understand how to improve. But when I get hoove-stomped into a fine mist in TFH it feels like a blur, and the only thing I understand when it's all over is "Boy, I'm bad at this". I'm have a real struggle extracting information from the experiences, and thus not really sure how to improve. Practice mode is great for trying out combos, etc., but it's a far cry from the experience of an actual opponent.

    That's all a hugely longwinded way of asking: What's the best way to approach the fundamentals? What's the best way to understand my weaknesses and engage the game in a way where I can start to acquire some skills, rather than just be overwhelmed? I gather I need a heck of a lot of work on defense, but I'm not sure how to even approach that.

    I apologize for the long post, but would appreciate any advice. I'm still excited for the game and really want to support it and be a part of it - Though I begin to wonder if it's too late, and I should have been trying from the beginning of the beta!

    Thanks much in advance.
     
  2. CamTSB

    CamTSB 死の匂いか?
    Staff Member Mane6 QA

    Messages:
    415
    Likes Received:
    444
    Moved this over to the Fighting Games forum.

    There are many places to start, and the internet is a large place with a lot of resources, and one of my Discord Mods has actually put together a pretty conclusive guide for beginners. There may be certain points it is lacking in, but this should do you nicely in information, but also involves a fair bit of reading.

    As well there are a few Discord servers specifically for TFH, one being my own server and another being the Fightin' Foenatics server.

    My server is aimed at a more FGC friendly area, while also being helpful (We tend to have some pretty hard hitters in there) whereas I believe the FF server is geared towards new players completely.
     
  3. Snivian Moon

    Snivian Moon How I mine for combo?
    Backers' Beta Tester

    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    92
    Very sorry for posting in the wrong forum. I completely misinterpreted, but I very much appreciate the move to the correct location.

    Thanks very much for the response and the resources! I will look into them as intently and earnestly as I can. Both the guide and the Discord servers. Hopefully I can find a path forward and find a way to get experience that is meaningful.
     
    Delusional Dreamer likes this.
  4. BaG_2.0

    BaG_2.0 Awful at fite game
    Crowdfund Backer

    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    43
    I've had this same problem in fighting games for over 10 years now and people always love to point you to guids and videos of people explaning how to get better.

    The problem is I think a lot of these people don't realise that a guid or a video is exactly that, something on a screen that you can't interact with. You can't really learn how to do the things you read or are told how to do unless you can actually have a chance to do them. I'm not in the beta, but if this is anything like playing Skullgirls, MvC or even DBZF online, you will never actually get a chance to put what youce learned into practice because you just get boddied the the first punch.

    Another problem is... well look, I'll put this as delicately as I can. The FGC is... not friendly. At all. I can't speak for everybody, but I personally have been burned by people who I have aproced in the past requesting advice or even some friendly training. It's part of the reason why I stayed away from these forums so long.

    It's conditioned behavior. You can only be told "git gud scrub" so many times before you figure out that you should probably distance yourself from people who are likely just going to tell you the same thing.

    I'm not trying to say anything about this community in particular, I've literally lurked these boards since the day I was given my backer status. I wouldn't be here and I definitely would NOT be saying this if I didn't think I would be given a fair chance to make my opinion known.
     
  5. CluelessDetective

    CluelessDetective Active Member

    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    55
    Something I can recommend is picking a character and sticking to them, that way you can learn their ins and outs. Of course switch to another one if you want to learn more or if you like another character more than the one you picked but try to stick to one at a time if you can.

    Buttons are another important thing. In training you can look at frame data for your normals and your specials, anything positive is safe (meaning if your opponent blocks it you can go straight to blocking) and negative is unsafe (if they block they can put you in a combo).

    Of then those general things its mainly learning through play. Find people who want to learn with you or dont mind teaching you. There's always really nice people in the FGC to help though there are rude people. The more you play the more you'll probably learn. I didn't know much about fighting games till last year and now I'm in love with the genre and most of my learning has just been playing with people and figuring stuff out as I go.
     
    ty4brawl, Terrington, Orcool and 2 others like this.
  6. Snivian Moon

    Snivian Moon How I mine for combo?
    Backers' Beta Tester

    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    92
    Yeah, I'll be honest - This is pretty much exactly my issue, I'm afraid!

    Guides are good, and I will admit that I need them for some more intermediate/advanced topics. But it feels like there's really no good way to put any of that granular knowledge to work, or build up any skill.

    If I ever find anyone to play against - It's just utter devastation from the first hit, and I can't rightly extract knowledge from that. All I learn is that I suck, which I already know. It's really unclear to me that "Oh, I should have been doing [X] there".

    My main hope is that there's some way to be able to understand these concepts in action. Playing matches doesn't seem to be it, because it just is useless for me and irritates the people who are good at the game that I'm even trying.

    I've heard this often, and experienced it firsthand more than once (recently as well). I'm quite hopeful that TFH will be different, but I'll confess that maybe I'm being quite naive there. Regardless, I do understand exactly what you're saying!

    Oh, thanks very much for that! The frame data was a bit of nuance that I was completely not looking at in training mode. Much appreciated for that tip!
     
  7. Mage

    Mage A Normal Person

    Messages:
    121
    Likes Received:
    461
    Fighting games are a really unforgiving genre to get into. Not only are there all the mechanics to get acquainted with, there's all the confusing jargon (footsies, teching, etc). Heck, I still don't know what plenty of the terms mean.

    In my case, I was lucky. Someone I know became very interested in the competitive FGC, and I was "dragged along" as you might say, learning many terms and techniques by proximity.

    However, I've always felt I was at a very specific threshold as far as skill goes. I've never been one for "labbing" as they call it - spending long periods in training. I prefer on the fly learning, because researching frame data or discovering combos is not very fun for me. It's too much effort and time put in for something that is one of my hobbies. This obviously puts me at a disadvantage against some players. At the same time, I sometimes wonder if I'm beating my opponents on a mental level, but lose because I haven't maxed my damage output or knowledge in key situations.Then are times when I wonder if all my wins are based off luck. lol

    I wasn't really trying to make a point with this post, but rather share my own perspective and experience. Perhaps someone found it interesting or useful.
     
    Delusional Dreamer likes this.
  8. QuoteMarks

    QuoteMarks This is a bug.

    Messages:
    52
    Likes Received:
    215
    I'm gonna keep this short cause I don't know what I'm talking about.

    It sounds like those who are asking for help are bad at the neutral game, or at least have a worse neutral than the people their fighting.

    The neutral to my understanding is the part of the game where you're trying to land a hit without getting hit. When I get the game, in order to improve what will be my non-existent neutral game I will fight higher level bots with the intent to avoid their attacks for as long as possible without attacking back. Once I'm confident in doing that I will begin to try to land hits myself without getting hit.

    but I'm a smash bros pleb and everything I've said is likely wrong so feel free to ignore.
     
    WereWeasel42 and Snivian Moon like this.
  9. Mage

    Mage A Normal Person

    Messages:
    121
    Likes Received:
    461
    I don't know if you were including me in your post, but I actually try to play the neutral game as much as possible because it's what I enjoy most. In fact, I sometimes back off when I have the pressure advantage because I don't like playing in such a risky way. And I always feel like I don't deserve a win if it's earned by a few mixups in quick succession. Not to challenge the validity of such play - most fighting games revolve around it - I just don't have as much fun playing that way.