1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Them's Fightin' Herds is now out on Early Access!
    You can buy it from these links.
    Humble Bundle // Steam

  3. 26.6.18: Situation update

    Current Early Access Patch: 8-18-2018

I'm losing faith in this game.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Korencz11, May 18, 2018.

  1. Dom

    Dom New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    10
    The ropes having 1 active frame is part of the changes, I'm sure. I think Oreo just typo'd there. For the ropes being a command grab, 1 frame is proper to check for the state that the character is in at the moment and more would be unnecessary; punishing people way harder for flinching. The amount of the recovery of rope stops Arizona from being a monster wall of grabs in the midscreen that would be way too oppressive to deal with. For Velvet, just because of the nature of the character, you can't really make snowflakes too much worse or they become REALLY bad. What I would give serious thought to is giving Arizona more lasso angles instead of having to rely on 6As or super jump buttons just to stop Tian from flying in that easy to get to dead zone.

    I kind of agree with 2D being a slightly better rope than 5D because of the potential Arizona gets from 2D to knowledge check people. I think that the fact that people could prefer 2D or 5D and vice versa is an example of good design since we don't all play the characters the same way and don't want to. I think they both have their place and that's important.

    I do think 4D is perfectly fine against the cast. But having some more, despite being a grounded character while Tian can fly overhead and you have to play a numbers game of which risk you want to try at the cost of maybe losing position, hoping you don't get hit, thinking about just waiting for Tian to move before you commit, etc. It doesn't sound too farfetch'd for Arizona to have a steeper rope angle on 1D or something.

    The matchup is definitely in Tian's favor. That is something that everyone here as agreed on and feelings or shots aside, you should be actively absorbing what everyone has to say here Koren. Not just me or Keet or Bubble.

    Discord shit-fling aside, I agree with this. To be honest, I have zero interest in trying to talk about things on discord since they get washed out way too quickly and I don't really want to deal with the sheer amount of people, all at once and have to deal with people blowing up my DMs or the channel and community getting too cliquish even if I like all of you. And, I think posts like this are important to have around so that people can actually go back and read it instead of it getting corrupted over time like a game of telephone if it was a Discord back-and-forth.
     
  2. Oreo

    Oreo Keepin' It Stylish
    Staff Member Mane6 QA

    Messages:
    268
    Likes Received:
    409
    This, among other reasons, is why Tianhuo's flight was changed this last patch. It should be significantly harder for Tianhuo to not only avoid ranged attacks that control air space, but for her to just fly over the entire screen entirely and get in effortlessly.


    I actually didn't typo, but I may be misremembering certain minutiae. The game is iterated upon so much in development that sometimes I have trouble remembering all the hard data that changes between versions. But I do remember problematic situations, and I certainly remember that having 5D catch both on the ground and in the air made her exceedingly strong, allowing her to throw it out without the risk/reward that lassos are intended to have.
     
  3. Dom

    Dom New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    10
    She still does it and usually FAR, out of reach. That, in combination with flips, crackers, air dash, delayed air dash etc is the rest of the numbers game.
     
  4. Ebvert

    Ebvert Mega-Absol Potential Molester
    Backers' Beta Tester

    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    186
    As a Tian main let me say that it's not really hard to avoid every aerial response Arizona has for Tianhuo; The flight upward speed nerf is not really that much of a handicap, it's not one that's significant enough to make a difference, I can still Super Jump into Fly all well and get over Arizona's 4D range, then I get into the aerial space above her, where she has to guess what input I will do, since I can mix up my dash into my Magic flips so easily and do whenever I want. If I get hit by 4D rope, it's either because of a hard read from the Ari player or because I badly spaced my aerial movement and if Arizona goes for the read, it's extremely easy to punish with just IAD j.B.

    What I'm going at is that it's up for the Arizona player to make a call, and if she goes for the wrong one, she gets full punished for it, meanwhile the Tianhuo player just needs to out space her and she gets free ins all the time, adding that some cross-up situations for tian are random, meaning that neither me or the other player knew it would be a cross-up I can tell you it's so into the Tianhuo player's favor.
     
  5. Yeena

    Yeena DANCING YEEN, YOUNG AND SWEET, ONLY SEVENYEEN
    Backers' Beta Tester

    Messages:
    62
    Likes Received:
    219
    This is a good post. Not just for this thread, but in general. I wanna print this out and tape it to my wall.
     
  6. Oreo

    Oreo Keepin' It Stylish
    Staff Member Mane6 QA

    Messages:
    268
    Likes Received:
    409
    What stops the Arizona from just staying mobile on the ground and avoiding you? If you're up there, you don't really have any presence on the ground to force them to stay there.
     
    HeartClock likes this.
  7. ty4brawl

    ty4brawl Feed b ack
    Backers' Beta Tester

    Messages:
    476
    Likes Received:
    1,845
    While I'm nowhere near the level of pretty much everyone in this thread, this may have something to do with the Ari player waiting to see what the Tia does to try and counter it, or not wanting to give up positioning, or or not wanting to end up in a random spot when the Tia does come back to a suitable area for the Ari and have to quickly reasses where they are.
     
  8. Dom

    Dom New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    10
    The method of avoiding her kinda goes out the window when Tian can air dash to follow me if I don't decide to run to the other end of the screen or fly in place and wait for me while I'm waiting for her or falling j.C or 4D from the air into buttons MAYBE. Stuff like that. It's not even interactive and kinda frustrating when you can actually timer scam every character out if you really wanted to. Let's go unfly. I would rather just wavedash to the other end of the screen every time so that I can have a good angle to 6A as the flight timer ends and then it'll probably happen again.

    In Arizona's context, that just sounds like a horrible gotchafest as both characters whiff buttons between engagements and then Arizona doesn't get to really move unless she has magic or meter in comparison as 5B on its own is enough to hold a character in the corner whereas Tian always has the threat of 7D or no 7D to get out of a bad situation to funnel things down. Nothing really stops Tian from being in that deadzone and falling on Arizona's face besides 6A (and sometimes 2B) which isn't always going to work since Tian can just change the timings and all of the burden is on Arizona to choose wisely when Arizona could just have a tool to stop that from happening then Tian has to think a little bit more as 4D and the theoretical "up-lasso" control the aggressive air space and the dead zone.
     
    Korencz11 and 6clock7 like this.
  9. Oreo

    Oreo Keepin' It Stylish
    Staff Member Mane6 QA

    Messages:
    268
    Likes Received:
    409
    I assume you mean Tianhuo 5B, and you're comparing one character having corner advantage as opposed to the other?

    7D is only strike invulnerable, not throw invulnerable. If Tianhuo is predictable with her corner 7D attempts, an air throw will put her right back into the corner, and with a hard knockdown as well. Only have to land it a few times to disincentive the Tianhuo player from attempting it again.
     
  10. Ebvert

    Ebvert Mega-Absol Potential Molester
    Backers' Beta Tester

    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    186
    Let's be honest here, 7D's strike invulnerability works only on the ascending part of the move, even if I late 7D on corner wake up after Arizona jumps j.C I still get hit by it.
    I would prefer if 7D were to be a little slower and had a bit more hit invulneravility, but increased uncanceleable window, the instant movement seems really out of place to me.
     
    Yeena, Korencz11 and Salty Beef like this.
  11. Oreo

    Oreo Keepin' It Stylish
    Staff Member Mane6 QA

    Messages:
    268
    Likes Received:
    409
    Yeah, I actually agree. The burst speed actually makes it really jarring to use in general, even outside of a faux reversal option.
     
    PinkieFTW, Yeena and Ebvert like this.