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  2. Them's Fightin' Herds is now out on Early Access!
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  3. 26.6.18: Situation update

    Current Early Access Patch: 8-18-2018

I'm losing faith in this game.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Korencz11, May 18, 2018.

  1. Korencz11

    Korencz11 Backers' Beta Tester
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    So, before I get all the negative comments of the maybe ~10 or so people remaining on this site, I'd like to preface that I backed this game and have been a beta player for a long time. I started with this game as my first fighting game, and quite honestly, I'm thinking about dropping it.

    I decided in the beginning that I would main Arizona since she resonated with my play style the best. I played near exclusively against the AI and alone for a few months because I could never figure out when people were online, but once I did, I started getting significantly better.

    I never gave up, I kept playing, and in the current day, I hear other people call me one of the top Arizonas in the game, so I guess I made it pretty far.

    The issue now is the fact that Arizona isn't worth playing anymore. The latest patch and the 'stagger fix' was hot garbage for half the cast, a buff for a character that didn't need it, and a nerf for a character that needed it badly. Tian is so overpowered right now that she's near impossible to play against as Ari, but I'll save that for later. Why did stagger change? There was nothing wrong with it, it actually gave Arizona the chance to do any damage at all in a combo and now getting upwards of 1500 with her in a PvP setting is about as rare as finding a Pom main. Paprika can do everything Ari does with less effort and easier combos, and the average damage for one of hers is somewhere around 2100 per combo off of just about anything as long as she has 1 magic. She was even reimbursed for the stagger changes by having a command grab that now extends her combo. But that's fine, it's whatever, at least I can reach her. I can fight back against Paprika.

    I cannot fight back against most of the cast. My normals are tiny, getting push blocked means I have to start over, and to get in, I have to bet on something I do actually working. If my opponent has a stable connection and a remotely decent understanding of what Ari can do, then I don't have anything.

    :Tianhuo:Tian can get away with anything. As a matter of fact, because of the recent change to supers, Tian can 7D away from any super I use AGAINST her block strings. I can't punish her for doing unsafe moves because she has a get out of jail free card. "But that requires magic!" I hear the nay sayers in the distance, and sure, it does, but how does she get magic again? Oh right. She just kinda does. She can get away, stall for time, and once she's back to full, she can come in from places I can't reach, and what do I have to fight back? An anti air that I get punished for using on block if I don't guess right. Good Tian players will just bait it out. Not to mention that she now has a 4 frame overhead that when used after a low is next to impossible to guard against since absolute guard only works half the time. Or the fact that half of my attacks are useless against Tian because she can literally escape them just by being a pixel off the ground. So, what's the point of playing at all? Hope I get lucky and they're dumb enough to keep getting reset by me by not using that get out of jail free card that I have to predict to even keep the pressure on? Sure, that sounds like fun game play to me.

    :Velvet:Velvet is a game of no mistakes. If I screw up even once, I'm in it for 2.5k every single time. I cannot make a mistake. I cannot get hit by anything, and to get in, I have to play as unpredictable as possible because there is zero guarantee that I can do even that, and the moment I get hit, it's over. Oh, and let's not forget that the strongest character in the game also happens to have a reversal that leaves her INVULNERABLE for the start up of the attack. But no, totally fair character here. She's fine, I promise. I can get in for maybe 1.5k and then get push blocked and have to jump through a wall of ice and snowflakes to make my way back, or guess with a rope that will get me punished for guessing wrong, and we can always bait out the ropes, and the ropes themselves are slower than the entirety of a :D:, but it's fine. Arizona has reset potential. Isn't that great? I have the potential to get in. You have projectiles and one hit for 2.5k and I can maybe get in once. Sure sounds like fun game play to me.

    :oleander:Oleander is a game of do I rope, do I anti air, or do I jump? The Biggest problem here is that I can't do anything against :2::C: and :6::C: unless I somehow manage to get in close enough to hit my :6::A: and hope to god it isn't the latter of the two. And this all is made worse by the fact that blocking them at all sets me back and out of range for all my attacks, not to mention that she can just stay in the air for half a minute where I can't reach her and just read or something off of a block. The crazy teleports were locked away behind magic, and that was nice. One less thing I have to worry about I guess. It's too bad that I can't get in for garbage unless I get lucky or have their movement on lock down. I'm the only one who has to go out of my way and try unsafe things just to get walled out by keep away tactics and projectiles. But it's fine. Can't forget about good ol' reset potential. Sure sounds like fun game play to me.

    :Paprika:Paprika is the only match that isn't crazy skewed out of my favor just by existing, but that's only because she wants to be in close and doesn't have the tools to just escape the moment she needs to. As a matter of fact, Pap has a horrible flaw in that using almost any of her magic gets her caught in a rope no matter where she is on screen, or worse. But at least this match is usually a back and forth, and I don't have to guess and pray that I get a hit in 100% of the time. She's got bigger normals and an overhead that covers half the screen, a ploy to lock me out of a button and tricky teleports that can be hard to anticipate, but none of that is egregious enough to really complain about. That? That isn't so bad.

    :Pom:Pom is just... of all the players that play pom, I think I know of one by name and there may be a few others floating around. And that's just kinda sad. I've seen... one in the past month, maybe longer? I would love to be able to point out flaws with Ari v Pom, but I honestly don't have enough matches to to say anything about it. Sure, her j.C is still difficult to deal with, but... Who plays her?

    I had no real background in fighting games before this, and I'm honestly not sure I'll go to another one instead of just letting this die all together at once. But of the things I do have a background in, it is the souls series. I was punished, made to learn, and taught to keep trying in the face of overwhelming adversity, and to never give up. I haven't given up yet. And I don't want to give up on this. But honestly? It's getting hard to care about it anymore. When half the entire cast of the game is a match up in my opponent's favor, one is the only thing close to even but still unfair, and the other is next to non existent, what's the point of playing when skill can only take the tools so far? With as bad as the last patch was though, I'm starting to lose hope that anything will improve.
     
  2. Kastor

    Kastor Active Member

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    "Arizona has reset potential"
    That's putting it lightly. Stop focusing so much on long combos, Arizona is the reset queen. Two short combos do far more damage than a long combo.

    The reason the added the stagger change is to stop your specific playstyle, so work on a new one. Ari is still viable.
     
  3. Korencz11

    Korencz11 Backers' Beta Tester
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    So One, you're actively telling me that my playstyle is wrong. I just want you to let that sink in. You're telling me that I am playing the game wrong. If that's the case, then I don't want to play the game at all. Why play the game if I can't play it how I want to? That's utterly disgusting and there's not a company in the world that would tell you that the way you play the game is wrong.

    Two, did you read the post? Like, at all? This is not about that. Arizona just doesn't have any tools to deal with half the cast right now and is severely underpowered. The stagger changes hurt that a lot and a good defense will always beat resets. What good is reset potential if I can't 'get in' in the first place? I don't want to play the game anymore because it's constantly an uphill battle against anything that isn't a mirror match. Other characters do what I do better, and the one thing I had just doesn't work anymore.
     
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  4. Yeena

    Yeena DANCING YEEN, YOUNG AND SWEET, ONLY SEVENYEEN
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    The problem with that is that most of the rest of the cast have very high damage combos - ESPECIALLY Velvet - and don't need to risk 50-50s to win. Reset game is important to a FG, absolutely, but when one or two characters rely on it and four others can kill off one or two lucky hits and have reliable ways to get back into neutral, it doesn't seem particularly balanced.

    Also Velvet's damage is crazy stupid and so is a four frame overhead from Tian, especially when absolute guard doesn't work the way it probably should.
     
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  5. Brutus

    Brutus Crowdfund Backer
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    Tian matchups have always been BS for Arizona, as have both ranged characters. Anyone who's decent with any of those three will, generally speaking, make your day terrible. And it's very easy to become disheartened after a string of losses, especially if the balance feels off. That feeling of powerlessness is never fun.
    Maybe try leading off with different things, or train your air game more? I find that I stop playing this as a fighter and more as a puzzle game when I get bodied enough, since the people I go up against have a set list of combos they'll pull off and that's it.
    Worse comes to worst, maybe use it as an opportunity to branch out and try a new character? You tend to spot a lot of weaknesses a character has when it's you behind the wheel.
    Feel free to take this with a grain of salt, of course, since I likely haven't put nearly as much time into this as you seem to have.
     
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  6. Kastor

    Kastor Active Member

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    After some reflection, I'ma back out of this conversation, I'm obviously in the wrong. I'm coming across as insulting.

    Brutus's post is quite good. Give that a read.
     
  7. Oreo

    Oreo Keepin' It Stylish
    Staff Member Mane6 QA

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    Throughout the entire life of the game, setplay (a series of practiced, rehearsed actions done immediately after a combo to force an opponent into an ambiguous, extremely difficult to block mixup or series of mixups with virtually no defensive recourse) has been an issue we've slowly been attempting to correct. System mechanics, like moves that caused a hard knockdown losing this property after the Juggle Decay bar is filled, were intended to curtail this. Moves like Oleander :2::C:, Arizona :2::D:, and Tianhuo's Volcanic Crash all lose this property. This is intended to prevent characters from doing long, damaging combos into guaranteed pressure that an opponent could not ground tech away from.

    However, an oversight to this system that lasted far too long was stagger restands. Arizona, Paprika, and Pom were able to use moves with this particular mechanic ( :D:, :6::A:, and :[4]::6::C: respectively) to ignore the limitations to hard knockdown entirely. Stagger restands, in effect, allowed exactly half the cast to circumvent a system mechanic designed to prevent a style of play that was extremely strong and not particularly fun or rewarding to the defending player by removing their ability to ground or air tech out of the end of a combo, forcing them to stand still in place and attempt to defend against a potent, rehearsed offense. The stagger mechanic now follows the same rules that hard knockdown does; namely, that it is no longer available once the Juggle Decay bar is full. This forces all the characters to basically follow the rules of the game equally, and prevent any attempt by the attacking player to circumvent the setplay-limiting mechanics with alternatives.

    The metagame that developed due to the strength and prevalence of these mechanics has made it difficult to accurately assess the strengths of each cast member against one another. Now that this particular strategy is no longer viable, we definitely will be keeping an eye on how the meta develops from here, and should any characters be underperforming in any significant way once alternative strategies have been developed for the 3 cast members that lost access to stagger restand setplay, we will be looking at further tweaks and balancing as needed. As many members of the cast were overperforming prior to this recent patch (Oleander and Tianhuo specifically getting targeted nerfs and reworks to their tools this patch to reduce some of their strength), we'll need time to see how things play out before deciding where to go from here, and determine if any further balancing is required.
     
    #7 Oreo, May 22, 2018
    Last edited: May 22, 2018
  8. Rich Jammer

    Rich Jammer By the Numbers Accountant
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    Is this match an example of what you speak of?
     
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  9. Tunnel_Rhino526

    Tunnel_Rhino526 Backers' Beta Tester
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    Doesn't :2::+::D: result in a hard knockdown that switches sides instead of staggering? I just tested that a while ago and it didn't look like a stagger.
     
  10. Korencz11

    Korencz11 Backers' Beta Tester
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    It's nice to actually see this out in words since I couldn't ever find the real reason this happened anywhere. I have a new mindset on the whole thing now thanks to something else, but it certainly isn't super fun to play the game all the time. I'll definitely be keeping an eye out for patches in the future though.
     
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  11. Oreo

    Oreo Keepin' It Stylish
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    Yes, you are correct. I actually meant to just type :D: by itself, but that emote directly next to a parentheses broke the formatting. When I went back to edit it, I forgot what move I was talking about and added the :2: erroneously. I'll fix the original post to the proper motion to avoid confusion.

    Yup.

    From the patch notes in this build:


     
    #11 Oreo, May 22, 2018
    Last edited: May 22, 2018
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  12. Korencz11

    Korencz11 Backers' Beta Tester
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    Right, but that just tells me that it happened and a change was made. It doesn't explain why or give a reasoning as to what was wrong in the first place.
     
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  13. Oreo

    Oreo Keepin' It Stylish
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  14. Korencz11

    Korencz11 Backers' Beta Tester
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    Okay, but that sentence does not say what this one does,

    or explain to me what setplay is and why it's not something they wanted in the game.

    This

    Furthermore, due to staggers being a reliable way to avoid mechanics intended to limit the potency of mixups after knockdowns, we have changed how staggers work post-JD. Players who rely on using staggers as late as possible will now have to be more wary of the JD bar as they too have to deal with a guaranteed knockdown situation.​

    expects me to come in with context for jargon and conversations I wasn't a part of. It doesn't tell me in plain English what was wrong and why it was fixed. If what you said was in the main patch notes, I honestly think I wouldn't have gotten so bent out of shape about it.
     
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  15. Oreo

    Oreo Keepin' It Stylish
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    Patch notes have to remain succinct for a variety of reasons, but your feebdack is noted and I'll make sure the members of the team that write the patch notes receive it.
     
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  16. Korencz11

    Korencz11 Backers' Beta Tester
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    Thanks, this kind of response is exactly what I liked about this group to begin with.
     
  17. Korencz11

    Korencz11 Backers' Beta Tester
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    New update:

    The Tian/Arizona match up is so far skewed in Tian's favor that the game isn't worth playing anymore. It would be nice if you could just write it off as only 1/6th of the player base plays Tian, but in all honesty there are probably more Tian players than anything else. How does a game become un-fun? This is how. You have a match up that's a 9/1 split because one character has to commit to everything, and the other doesn't have to commit to anything while having the mobility to never get hit by anything the other does.

    Call me France, but I'm giving up until something changes. It's just not fun anymore.
     
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  18. Oreo

    Oreo Keepin' It Stylish
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    Have you talked to other players and asked for help in the matchup? I'm fairly certain that most people would not say it's anywhere near that bad, and could probably give you tips to make it much easier on yourself.
     
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  19. Korencz11

    Korencz11 Backers' Beta Tester
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    I have, and the sad truth is that most players I talk to agree with me.
     
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  20. MPK

    MPK Professional Down-Backer
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    Hello, MPK here.
    I do the weekly stream thing for Fightin' Foenatics.

    Arizona vs Tianhuo is NOT a 9-1 matchup. There's a bunch of options Arizona can take to fight against Tianhuo.
    6a is still a universal anti air. Cross Canter is still a solid defensive option. I rarely see you use either for their intended purpose.

    Neutral Game (there's a lot of neutral game itself but I'm using the phrase here for the sake of simplicity) is EXTREMELY important in this matchup just because of Arizona's stubby normals. She has to focus more in different areas than Tianhuo does.

    I've watched several months worth of footage of every single matchup, tons of different playstyles, and some high level play.
    I talk to a lot of online players and listen in on discussions when I can in several different areas.

    Honestly, before the recent patch was released I felt Arizona vs Tianhuo WAS a very tough matchup for Arizona. It was absolutely winnable. Everything in TFH is a winnable matchup. After the patch, Arizona is still just as strong as before and Tianhuo has to play neutral now way more than she did before. This means Arizona can reach her in a lot of situations she previously couldn't.

    Right after the patch dropped, I haven't heard a single Arizona player complain about the Ari vs Tina matchup until I saw this post.
    This means there obviously has been a significant change that allows Arizona to play more.

    Nothing in this game has ever been 9-1. It's really difficult to see someone say that after they themselves have participated in and watched high level matches of players playing that exact matchup and winning easily. Before and after the patch.

    I really wanted to address this too. There's a BIG difference between telling you you're playing wrong and telling you that whatever strategy you're currently taking isn't not working in fighting games. This isn't some first person shooter where you take 1 of 3 paths of story mode and end up winning no matter what you chose. I remember you stating you came from For Honor. For Honor plays NOTHING like TFH and most fighting games in general. The strategies and mindset you had for that game mostly doesn't apply. You HAVE to figure out different strategies, uses for your current moveset, and how to approach each and every single other character in the game differently.

    The biggest thing is that there's way more to fighting games than "I want to mix them up and keep them guessing". There's way more decisions that have to be made before that can even happen.

    Yes, you CAN make the wrong decisions in fighting games. "You're playing the game wrong" sounds really negative but the Win/Loss counter at the top of the screen shows you what strategy is currently working. The losses you gain help you information on your opponent.

    After watching several months of gameplay from you, watching several discussions in several servers, and actually playing against you... the only thing I felt stood out the most in your post here is that you were "forced to learn". I haven't seen you actively try to learn different strategies, different approaches, or even different combos on your own or even ask for help. That really saddens me since we have a lot of very strong players in several servers ready and willing to help you at almost 24 hours a day. So, exploding like this on the forum kind of hurt me personally when there are 2 designated servers designed to help you get better at the game. One of them hosting weekly streams (and now a monthly stream specifically dedicated to helping players learn).

    I really wanted to just address the Arizona vs Tianhuo matchup. I can address the other matchups too but this post is already too long.
     
  21. Arcanel

    Arcanel Backers' Beta Tester
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    There's nothing I can really add that hasn't already been mentioned by MPK up there already, but I fully agree with the concept that the Arizona v Tianhuo matchup just isn't 9-1, and it never has been either.

    Arizona HAS always had to do the most work in the matchup, and that hasn't changed at all either even with the new patch because the matchup is still favorable towards Tianhuo, but the thing is that Arizona has tools to be able to challenge Tianhuo when she gets her own game going, and that you don't have to let her do more things to you much like how Tianhuo can't let Arizona put her at rope range or in knockdowns for reset play.

    6A, j.B, j.A, sometimes mixing up with 6B, and then mixing up some strong neutral with ropes, can all make Arizona very tough to crack for Tianhuo when she can't get herself going at all. Not to mention that as soon as Ari gets one good touch for a combo, she grows much more dangerous because of her magic. If Arizona however doesn't make herself to be respected then yes, it's gonna be incredibly hard even with magic. But now that the game requires a lot of neutral from both parts now, it's less bad for Arizona, and considering my own matches with other Ari players, I've seen it been so myself as well.
     
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  22. Korencz11

    Korencz11 Backers' Beta Tester
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    No one was complaining about the matchup because the stagger change was much more of a detriment to everything previously established. I don't ask for help from the servers because the last time I did that, I got talked down to by a condescending player who told me that nothing I brought to the table was of any value. Excuse me if I didn't have any inclination to stick around.

    Who said the matchup was unwinnable? It's just a massive pain in the ass and I have to play way harder than she does to even make a dent in her health. Not to mention is that it takes three stray hits for Tian to kill 90% of the time and I have to rely on resets and prediction to keep going. Like I keep saying, it's a match where I have to play perfectly to win, or they have to drop most of what they've rehearsed.

    And there you go again, telling me what I have and haven't done, thanks. I'm glad to know that I've never experimented or tried out new things because quite honestly, I didn't actually know what I've been doing this whole time. I was just mashing and hoping that things would link into each other and somehow got lucky. I never spent days in combo training trying to learn stuff, or practicing with things I didn't do very often or incorporating a new idea into my tactics, and you're absolutely correct in that I did none of those things. Good talk.

    What would you prefer, Arc? 8.5/1.5? 8/2? 9.5/.5? I don't think the game requires any more neutral from Tian because honestly, it's still the same shit. One stray hit into a ten minute combo that eats 33-50+% of my health. I have to get a counter hit to get anything near those numbers and it's always a one sided fight with little room to catch up, because even if I do get that counter hit, it's likely already to the point where I'm down half or more of my own HP. You can get away with half your buttons and then take a little nap in the air to recover your magic, and me chasing you down is one of the dumbest things I can do since everything I do is reactable and you don't even have to make a move until I do. You even got a new 4 frame overhead that I can barely see to add to your mix ups, so unless I know it's coming ahead of time, it's gonna connect.

    It's almost like playing a dice game when fighting Tian. If I roll well, then I'll get a hit in, and if I don't well then there goes the match. When it feels like bad RNG controls wins and losses, then what is the :bark::bark::bark::bark:ing point?

    The thing you both seemed to miss here is that I don't think it's fun anymore. It just isn't. Hard work and effort are squandered and that doesn't feel good. Why play a game if it's not enjoyable?
     
  23. raisinbrannew

    raisinbrannew Crowdfund Backer
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    ....Do you still want to fight a Pom player? I'm game if you are...
     
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  24. Bubbleboots

    Bubbleboots Backers' Beta Tester
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    Hi, Ari main here, and I have to say you're slightly over exaggerating the Ari vs Tian matchup. Is it in Tianhuo's favour? Yes, it is. But 9-1? Not even close. I've fought a lot of Tianhuo players, and I'd say the matchup is more closer to 6-4, maybe 7-3 at worst.

    Tianhuo has a lot of air mobility and decently large normals, especially when compared to Arizona's. Since Tianhuo is so often in the air, a lot of Arizona's tools are harder to use effectively. Stomps are much more difficult to hit, and most ropes are also going to whiff, and both of these moves when missed gives the Tianhuo plenty of time to move in and punish. Not all of Arizona's tools are useless though. 4D, her air rope, can catch Tianhuo regularly if they fly at a distance, and her headbucks, while unsafe if blocked, have fairly good hitboxes for both moving forward and anti airing.

    The main thing to keep in mind is that the Tianhuo is going to be want to be getting in on you and has the mobility to do it. Because of this, you generally want to act to cover the space she is going to want to occupy. Moves like full jump j.A, shorthop j.B, and 6A are really good at this. Once you've got them respecting your space more, you can then start hitting with stomps as they hesitate to jump towards you.

    Beyond that, it's just about being able to block her pressure, and making good use of your tools to keep her guessing. Tianhuo has the most difficult time dealing with Arizona's resets due to her lack of any good reversals. Her flips can only get her out of so much, so abuse that as much as you can.

    It looks like you had one bad experience with the server and haven't used it since. I highly recommend giving it another shot, as the majority of the people in them there are willing to help. I don't post there as often as I should, but I regularly see people asking for help and receiving well thought out answers that give what is being asked.

    This is a good place to start. Trying out new things, either in training or even real matches, can really help you improve. You mention combo training, but there are many other things to work on as well. Arizona is full of different ways to get the jump on your opponent, both during neutral, and during her various resets. Once you learn these Arizona becomes a very strong force that can be very difficult for your opponent to manage.

    There is nothing RNG about fighting a Tianhuo. The only time RNG is ever a factor is Paprika gifts, and even that is fairly tame compared to how you're making this sound. If you're getting hit, it's entirely on you for letting it happen, and well played on the opponent's part. Same thing when you're the one hitting them.

    This all being said, if you don't enjoy playing the game anymore, it would be a good idea to take a break from it. Maybe you'll feel like coming back, maybe you won't. Either way is fine. What isn't fine is when you over exaggerate your character's weaknesses and make claims that are entirely untrue.
     
  25. Rich Jammer

    Rich Jammer By the Numbers Accountant
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    I'm a bit reluctant to say this since my opinion is very uninformed. But I noticed a certain pattern not just in this game but in others.

    Someone complains about something and a bunch of defenders come in saying that the system is balanced or not broken or whatever. Then some time passes and then a patch comes in and it either directly addresses the issue or alleviates it a little. Making me think that those defenders were just biased in some way. But again I have no idea cause I am ill informed on things.

    Like the recent patch fixed a bunch of stuff and all of a sudden I hear "oh yeah that was a big issue for a long time" and I'm just here scratchin my head like "this is the first I'm hearing of it". Again, possibly cause I'm not perceptive enough or I don't talk to people enough.

    Honestly as someone who don't know much about the fight games, game design etc I don't know who's opinion to listen to.
     
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  26. Korencz11

    Korencz11 Backers' Beta Tester
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    Gee, thanks for letting me know about basic attacks the character has. It's also a little telling when you say 'not all of Arizona's tools are useless' when you describe this. The fact that most every move you mentioned is highly unsafe on block really adds to the argument that I still have to commit to everything I do, so once again, unless I'm in control, there is really not much to be done here.

    Would you though? If a restaurant server treated you like shit, would you have any reason to return?

    Thanks for also telling me that I haven't experimented with playing my own character in the 300-400 hours I've put into this game. It really means a lot to me.

    When you give me a half-hearted agreement, I really wouldn't consider that much of an exaggeration, and based on your response, I don't think anything I've said is untrue.

    I never said it was RNG, I said it felt like RNG, which is never a good thing. I don't think there's a worse feeling in any game than being screwed by RNGesus in a position where you feel fine going in. When it gets to that point, then it's up to me to preserve the will to keep trying or stop, and at this point, I'm just going to stop.

    This? This is exactly right. When people like me come out to complain, it takes about four or five players, one or more of whom who've responded to this thread, to shut it down entirely because they have the most sway in the community. "I know better than you because my experience is worth more than yours," is the most common beat stick used to keep dessent and negative outlooks down and a lot of the time, that's just because those people like what's happening and don't mind staying in their positions with their characters. The game has 6 characters, so when lots of complaints happen, only so much of it can be invalidated by "better than you." Being willfully ignorant of a problem is a problem in and of itself, but ignoring the opinions of others on the account of "better than you" is what kills a community.
     
    #26 Korencz11, May 27, 2018
    Last edited: May 28, 2018
  27. Rich Jammer

    Rich Jammer By the Numbers Accountant
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    Yo Koren, you aren't free from my skepticism either.

    I feel like you latched on my statement cause it is the few that vaguely agrees with your position. It doesn't prove or disprove your point. It just casts doubt on the situation.

    The original intention of my statement:
    These are fanboys who will agree with anything that their idol will say. If their idol changes their mind the sheep will mindlessly follow.

    You took it and turned it into:
    They are intentionally keeping quiet cause they want to stay top dog and are knowingly hurting the game to stay in their position of power.

    Honestly, they want to be top dog in baby's first fighting game? LOL. You make it sound like there's a conspiracy to keep dissenters from speaking up so that they can keep abusing the system they've climbed atop from using dishonest means.

    My father has 40 years of driving experience, he should be Michael Schumacher by now.

    If the food was good and the guy either changed his ways or was fired sure.

    Honestly, I have seen something similar to this here in this forum before. Someone was complaining about a particular character (I don't wanna name who or which character cause i don't wanna drag them into this) and they were met with the same kind of reception. Oreo came in saying stuff like "you should do this..." "use this tool" etc etc. And then eventually the game was retooled that I think addressed his issues. I dunno to what degree it addressed his issues cause again I am ill informed. But yeah, it may seem like you are screaming into the void but there is evidence that they are listening. There may be push back at first but maybe your issues might be addressed.

    Now I gotta test your claim with this very small sample size. This match.
    According to your claims this match should be impossible. And the opponent here is no slouch, putting linkster into loser's bracket in round 1. So this guy should have creamed you where you stood.
    But of course I am ill informed. I'm gonna have to look up the statistics of all Tianhuo and Arizona matches to validate your claim.
     
    #27 Rich Jammer, May 28, 2018
    Last edited: May 28, 2018
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  28. Dom

    Dom New Member

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    Uh. You guys don't actually think that Koren believes it's a 9-1 right? I think the more important thing he's trying to get at is that fighting in the situation isn't fun and that Arizona, indeed, loses to Tian. And the sarcasm? Come on bois.

    I can definitely see that it could be a little hard to not take it seriously. With posts like,
    But, to me, it's obvious that Koren is just annoyed which is understandable so give him some room to wiggle because I know all of you do that. Even if it IS a little dumb.

    Keet, I REALLY don't think that Koren is necessarily wrong to make parallels to games that have similar interactions beyond the literal level. You can compare any game where you play against someone else to chess. I don't believe that he's implying that TFH should play like For Honor either. Playing against someone is the bigger picture that should be thought about; not the literal one.

    Koren has worked on a lot of things to improve himself. So, I think saying that is kinda messed up.

    I'm not going to go back and forth about the matchup since Koren is mainly annoyed at how much work he has to put in compared to Tian and I don't understand why people are acting why there is zero truth to the things he has said and focusing on the sarcasm.

    It is a VERY common thing for people to give things the "It's fine" and pass it. Either that, or something where if they haven't experienced any difficulty, there is no problem. That is a really destructive mentality to have since it, more-or-less, disregards the concerns of the other people who do have a problem with something and that is not the same as just learning the matchup. Some people just question why Tian can still hit people with j.A while crouching with 8 active frames and be +26 after 2C flight or why Oleander USED to be able to control Fred while tech rolling. (which got fixed and should have been that way in the first place.) In the exact same way, people questioned why Gordeau used to be able to run the game with Grim Reaper while Akatsuki and Hilda are crying for help or why Fukua had an 8 way mixup. They're all part of important conversations for everyone to think about.

    I still do think that Koren is being over-the-top for sure but there are people here that should be able to see that.
     
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  29. ZeroParadox

    ZeroParadox Ace Daydreamer
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    I've had a lot of time to sit down and listen to other people talk about this post over the weekend, and I've been ignoring it out of respect for the people who have posted so far who have actually tried to help you so far, Koren. But since this seems to keep coming back to this particular theme, one in which you seem to feel your "experiences" are being denied by some of these players who just can't seem to understand your point of view, I'd like to take the time to explain to you the experiences I've had thus far.

    I have been trying to figure out this matchup for a couple of months now. Life circumstances prevent me from playing much of anything as actively as I would like, but when I get the chance to grind with some of the better known Tian's like Arcanel, Arizona player's like Bubble, or just one of the players considered the best right now in general, like MPK, I get to work at trying to solve the problem. Hell most of my time is spent playing our best Pom in the unofficial server, Hamit, so if you wanna talk about that matchup sometime too, I'm all for it.

    I've had a lot of time to think about this particular matchup, and the problems it presents to Arizona players. I know it's difficult. A stubby, grounded based character versus someone who can fly for Christ's sake. And only in the last few weeks, maybe a month or two, have I really come to understand how well I can play this MU out in order to approach it. Without the knowledge I have now, I can easily see how you and many others would think that this is an exercise in futility against players who know more than you on the Tian side of things, or just enough to make this feel like a "9-1" matchup for you. And at that point, I get you, I really do.

    But only up until that point. Because you haven't had this discussion with me. At all. Everyone who has posted thus far? They have either had the discussion with me, or in the case of a tester like Oreo, has tons more hours put into various games over years of play to know how to construct a a strong picture of what a matchup is actually like.

    If you want to sit here and say you're frustrated with the game because you feel changes need to be made in order to allow characters to properly function? That's fine. An imbalanced roster leads to an unhealthy playing experience and that's something that needs to be addressed. But you can talk about your "experiences" all day. The fact is, I haven't seen you contribute so much as a single line of text to the many open discussions I've had on the subject - each one being built upon by what was learned the previous times that came before. I've talked about this on both sides of the fence. You can't come down on people for supposedly telling you what you have done right and wrong, and then completely ignore all the work that has gone into actually having a discourse on the topic in particular from the very same people. You're struggling because you don't have answers, but upon receiving those answers from people willing to help you, you shrug them off.

    We could easily take this to the side and start working on things based on where I and Bubble are already at in the matchup so that you can improve and be able to deal with Tian better. You could start to understand why so many people have disagreed with you thus far. But instead of wanting to learn, you wish to sit on your opinions and deny points of view from, again, some of the strongest players in the community. Meanwhile, I'm here in the Discord racking my brain to actually approach this match up properly with these guys, coming up with strong answers (both for this MU and also for Arizona and this game in general) for what to do, and you're nowhere in sight to add to the discussion or reap the benefits of the answers that have come up.

    I don't know where you are hearing players consider you one of the strongest Arizona's around, but being perfectly honest, considering your reception to assistance here, and your lack of assistance in actually contributing to what you seem to think is such a massive problem, I doubt that statement greatly. We have actually played before, and if you play anything like you did a few months ago (and I have reason to believe you do, both via statements and footage, and also knowing that where you were at back then left much room for improvement), then I can't believe that statement at all, from you or them. And even if you were as strong as they felt, you would understand that either A) there's no way this could be nearly as bad of a matchup as you say or B) if it is that bad, then you would be able to demonstrate this in a manner that could not be easily refuted by several people. And again, keep in mind, I've had this conversation. If you want to have a serious back and forth about how this matchup really works, I'd be happy to put both of us to the test. But if you're not gonna do that, and you refuse to learn the information being offered up to you, then you should know that yes, your best move should be to stop playing. But I'm not about to sit here and let you talk down to people who are trying to help you out, I'm not gonna ignore you trying to make it seem like people are coming to this character's defense for the sake of it and acting as if M6 is obligated to change things just to suit your needs, and I'm absolutely not going to act is if you are some sort of authority on a discussion you have not even come close to have properly had yet.
     
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  30. Korencz11

    Korencz11 Backers' Beta Tester
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    Rich... These are really bad arguments for the most part, so I'm gonna go through and take this apart, if nothing but for what the example with most of this thread has had happen.

    1, above. If that's what you wanted to say, then why didn't you say it that way? And yeah, I kinda do believe that second part. When high level players explicitly won't play their mains for people who ask to learn the matchup, then it makes me question if that's not the case.

    2, but does he still drive the same way he did 40 years ago? Sure, maybe he's not the best driver in the world but he's probably a way better driver at 56 than he was at 16.

    The first impression makes people come back. The guy was fired because they lost customers because of him, not because he was a bad server. If the server is crap, but nice and apologetic, people will come back. If they're offensive and rude, those people will find somewhere else to eat.

    That's the whole point of making a fuss chief. If I don't make noise, nothing is gonna change. And when things change seemingly out of nowhere without context because all of this discussion was gone in a whirlwind of discord, then I'm left wondering why.

    Literally one match, and I went on to fight him later that day and we went 5/6 in my favor. I even went on to tell him that if he had a longer combo, because it was totally possible to do, he would beat me every time. Trust you me, if I had the numbers to come in here with, I would. Whether it's 7/3, 9/1 or somewhere between the matchup is heavily skewed in Tian's favor. No one said it was impossible. 9/1 isn't literal.
     
  31. ccg

    ccg Grand Pone Watcher
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    Tian, can indeed be stressful to fight against, before the recent patch, she had ridiculously long block strings that you have to PB 3-5 times till she stops, and recharges... That's if you don't have enough meter for CC. But, this new patch she is much more manageable than before, her pressure game is still there, just not as strong now, it's a trade off for her new stuff like her j.a now being an actual overhead.

    As a Tian player myself I had my fair share of fights against the best Ari players out there, and I can say while Tian does have advantage with her mobility, she is very much predictable, as her approach will always be in front either grounded or above, but most likely from above, and the best Ari players I've fought (including Bubbles ofc) take advantage of that using her tools to counter Tian's approaches, specially when Ari has magic she becomes an unbreakable wall that Tian is forced to respect her and has to try a different approach to get in.

    I think the real problem here is the skill gap between the players, and not the actual match up, since every character in this game is well designed to have tools to use against any match up. It's up to the player how to use them, and come up with a strategy to counter the opponents approaches. Sadly, you can't determine how good a player is until you fight them, and the game still doesn't have a feature that automatically matches you up with the same skill level.
     
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  32. Korencz11

    Korencz11 Backers' Beta Tester
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    Double post due to length.

    Alright, here's the problem with this whole thread: No one has disagreed with me about the matchup, especially in the fact that it's complete shit for Arizona. 7/3, 8/2, 9/1 the numbers don't mean much when the entire post was about the match up ruining my experience with the game and the fact of the matter is that not one has said the match was fun or not entirely skewed in Tian's favor. It's shit, we all know it's shit, and that's what my post was about, and no one has said anything other than 'possible' not disagreeing with the fact that Ari does have to do a ton more work just to keep in the fight, not to mention that Tian is completely safe if she lands after a j.c, and the fact that she can jump past the whole screen to remove me from it and gain a bit more magic while she floats down. She never has less than two, she can just stall, and that sucks.

    Solving this problem is gonna take internal work, and that's the point of making noise. I don't want Tian nerfed, I want Arizona buffed because she, and Paprika for that matter, need it.

    Not to be rude or anything, but I don't know you and if you're just in some server that I don't have any inclination to be around, then what are you to me? I don't think I've even played you since the game dropped publicly. I honestly don't think the people you mentioned have much to add or even say to me about this match up either. Bubble doesn't communicate well, and Keet is just as bad or worse at it. In Oreo's case, I don't think he really plays TFH much, and why would he? He's got better things to do and this game doesn't have a very large crowd or really any big names to it at the moment.

    Because the overwhelming majority agrees that is sucks, it's my job to figure it out how to deal with it on my own, and before the patch, I was honestly fine. After the patch, I have to relearn how to deal with it, and I'm a person. I can get mad and frustrated about shit like this, and it's hard to sit there and take 60 losses to Tian without really figuring out how to deal with it any better than before. When it gets to that point, I begin to think that just maybe the balance is off and now things are even more in her favor. I get that taking losses is part of the game, but hell, I had an 80/2 with Reysol back before the beta ended and I started to learn how to deal with it. Fact of the matter is, it sucks, no one is talking about it where it doesn't get swept away in the hurricane of discord, so I'm talking about it.

    I'm not in your circle, so how am I supposed to add to your conversations? I'm not about to go monitor the 1000+ one word posts in the discord just to wait for something decent to show up. if I'm here, or on reddit, I can get information in a nicely formatted post and do with it what I will. Discord is terrible for this kind of discussion.
    -"You can't come down on people"-
    I mean, I absolutely can. I don't care what you've said, I don't know you, and I don't have any reason to trust your opinion. And what are you doing right here? Talking about your "experiences" like your word is law. Receiveing answers? I'm sorry if Bubble telling me generic information doesn't help much. Believe it or not, I play the game with people who are good at the game, and they cannot teach me how to react in a situation with words. Maybe I could run drills with a willing partner or see what I could do with hitboxes in training, but you know what? Nobody said any of that. "Just use X move, it works." helps no one.

    Strong player does not equal well spoken. Them disagreeing with me doesn't make them have compelling arguments, or even valid ones. So if you can beat me over the head with your 'experience' and I can beat you with mine, then nothing is accomplished. I get the feeling you were fed this information through discord and didn't actually read here before making your post, but them throwing shade behind my back is exactly the reason I don't visit. Maybe actually look at what's being said next time.

    What is this post? What are these posts? Is that not contributing to the discussion? I'm making noise, I'm talking here, if that's not adding to the discussion, then I don't know what is.

    Well shit man, I'm sure that 5 months ago, I probably wasn't really good at the game. And you're right, we don't hang in the same circles. But if they're all throwing shade on me for making a post on the forums, then I some how get the feeling they don't have the highest opinion of me to begin with. So there's another one of your "experiences" to add to the list. For that matter, who's refuting my point? No one has said anything contrary. They were all so hung up on the numbers '9/1' that they didn't even get the message in the first place, and neither did you, and that's how I know you read nothing in this thread before commenting. If you did, then your argument is bad and you should work on that.

    I'm talking down to people? I'm pretty sure I'm the one being talked down to here. If someone tells you that, if you punch the wall, your hand will hurt, is that new information when you just did exactly that? It's condescending to tell somebody that and I'm pretty sure that's what was going on in those posts. Excuse me for possibly being upset or even fighting back when somebody acts like an ass.

    I'm trying to make the discussion where people can see it, right here on the forums, so it can be had. I'm not an authority. Hell, this is the first Fighting game I've ever gotten into seriously, and I like it. I want it to thrive. I want it to be fun and feel good to play. But in that same vein, there are problems with the game, things that don't make sense that no one talks about, and those things make the game suck. So maybe you're having a conversation on discord hidden within all the mindless shit that passes through it, great. But when that gets swept away, only the people that were there see it and it causes reactions like mine when things change seemingly out of nowhere and not for the better.

    Ollie went from #2 to #3 and just shifted places with Tian. Arizona and Pap are still the bottom tier garbage that they have been since the last changes to either of them were made in the beta, and I think Pap was hurt the most out of this stagger change overall. Playing Arizona against half the cast is still suffering, and playing Paprika is also still suffering. It sucks, it isn't fun, and that means things need to change. We don't need to make characters less powerful, we need to bring other characters up to par because that's how fun fighting games are made.

    Sure, Tian being completely safe because of the way landing works in this game is crazy, sure her having a 4 frame overhead that can be used basically on the ground is terrible and way overpowered. Her getting away at the drop of a hat and just being able to wait out Fred and never get touched by Ari is infuriating, but I would much rather have all of that with an Ari and an Ollie that can compete with their own BS than Tian being nerfed into the ground. The same rules apply for Velvet in that she has some really crazy crap going on that she probably shouldn't, but why can't we all just have the crazy crap? When everyone is super, no one is. Games like that last forever, and while this is still in development, TFH can be one of them if we make it happen.
     
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  33. Korencz11

    Korencz11 Backers' Beta Tester
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    Thanks for actually offering a civil counter argument. Tis appreciated.

    Now then, what you're saying here is a fair. It's not so much the matchup itself, but skill with the character is the determining factor. Honestly, the most frustrating thing about this match was not the blockstrings, if you learned it, that's basically all she did, there weren't really much in the way of mixups, the only thing you had to be cautious about is getting caught by that stray crossup j.C. It's her being able to run away and just stall the game until she gets in that makes this match suck.

    You're right in that the string isn't nearly as long because she can't fly cancel out of everything, but that's just makes the Tian player stop using things they can't fly cancel. It's very easy to just poke and back off out of range without getting caught and even just using her overwhelming mobility advantage to bait out problem attacks from other characters. Velvet and Pom are the ones who can just not care about Tian backing up because it's good for them when she does it. Velvet can just knock the huo out the sky, and Pom will take the time to summon dogs that will ruin Tian's day. For the rest of us though, it's pretty painful because super jump + fly is about as free as it gets in this game. Pap typically can knock her out with a surprise Teleport C, but if she gets blocked, that's a full Tian combo she's about to take which is 33% or more of her HP. Ollie can at least take the time to read and possibly pull a Teleport D or set up traps so that when she comes down, she might get a hit in, but just like Ari, she has to wait.

    In Ari's case... I have to wait and hope I can counter hit you, or catch you with a rope as you're backing off. I'm ultra vulnerable if I try to meet you in the sky, and I can't cancel anything, so I'm kinda done the moment I push a button. And you know that, so all you have to do is wait and block, then counter and go into your 33% combo. So from nothing to something happening in the match, most of anything I attempt can be punished, and I can't make the first move without getting a rope in 90% of the time.

    Maybe it's better after the patch, maybe it's worse, maybe I'm just terrible and don't know how to play. But the options presented here, the 0% disagreement that the match sucks between all parties and the options I have available all point to it being unbalanced more than I just suck.

    How would I fix it? Two things.

    1) Neutral rope hits in air targets. Most frustrating thing about the match is that something that really looks like it should connect (i.e. 5D'ing a tian as she 6D's toward me) doesn't. It would make Arizona's worst rope (thanks to the stagger thing) way more useful and actually give me a reason to use it outside of combos.

    2) Rope is usable in air. (Giving Paprika a sort of volleyball spike with her gifts in the same fashion would also be really cool, make that crap safe to use at all.) It could be one rope, all three would probably be OP, hell it could just be neutral rope, but having any of them in the air I think would fix a lot of Ari's problems. Floaty characters are hard for her to get in on without magic, and her one way to obtain it is locked to the ground. Where they aren't for most of the match. If she could throw something to catch them and bring them close, or bring her close or something to close the gap, not even necessarily do damage, it would give her an option that doesn't require magic to actually get in with.

    But that's my opinion, and it's an opinion, so it can be wrong.
     
    #33 Korencz11, May 28, 2018
    Last edited: May 28, 2018
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  34. Oreo

    Oreo Keepin' It Stylish
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    It used to. It was nerfed because it was too strong. Ropes stay active for quite a few frames; they have to in order to function properly. Because of that, and the way jump arcs work, they would catch people on the way down from jumps, effectively punishing them for making the correct decision to jump out of the 5D. Which is essentially a ranged command grab. It was the best tool in every matchup, and returning it to that behavior would cause a ton of problems for pretty much every matchup that isn't Tianhuo.

    5D is her best rope. 4D takes your ground bounce, limiting your combo potential. 2D knocks down, preventing any combo. 5D is, by far, the best neutral rope to use. 5D is also very much still usable in combos AND for mixups. You just can't do an extremely long combo into it anymore.

    This would likely not only be too strong, but crash too harshly with her existing kit. She is a grounded rushdown character with several fantastic ranged options; but only from the ground, to incentivize playing from there. We'd likely increase the effectiveness of her grounded anti-airs before giving her such an appealing air-to-ground ranged option.

    (I say likely because it's not my decision to make, but I can't really foresee it happening.)

    I'm pretty sure most people said the matchup is fairly even? Bubbleboots said he thinks the matchup is 6-4, and that's actually a really good level of balance.
     
  35. Rich Jammer

    Rich Jammer By the Numbers Accountant
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    This thread in a nutshell:
    • Make Arizona Great Again
    • Can't Escape from Losing Faith
    Look Koren, I wanna address some of the stuff you replied to me. But I was being a Dick and I feel my response would be me being more of a Dick.

    But I do wanna address one statement:
    What's the point of the statement friendo? Did I ever say you shouldn't voice your concerns? Did I even imply it? If anything my statement is encouraging you to voice your concerns and you may be proven right in the end.

    But here's the low down. Look guy, I like you. It would be a shame if you left. But you are free to leave if you please for whatever reason. And sorry if I was being a Dick (I can't help it my name is Richard). But if you do come back I'll gladly welcome you back with open arms.
     
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  36. tortoiseandcrow

    tortoiseandcrow Crowdfund Backer
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    Have you spent much time playing other characters? Taking the time to learn Tianhuo herself may help you get a firmer grasp on both her strengths and weaknesses. Even if you choose to focus on one character, it is important to know how a character plays the game from their perspective. If you play Tianhuo for a while and just spend every day all day stomping on Arizonas then there very well might be a problem! I think that might be a better self-assessment tool than polling other people for their match-up ratios. If you become comfortable with Tianhuo and don't completely body Arizonas on the regular, perhaps that may also help to identify a strategy that they are using that you have overlooked?

    My biggest issue with Tianhuo has been that, prior to the patch, she was able to simply ignore much of the neutral game by flying over it. Her flight speeds have been altered with the most recent patch (slower while rising, faster while falling), and that seems to have made a difference. I've not had as much opportunity to play as I would like since the patch dropped though, so I can't offer much in the way of concrete thoughts about her in particular. In any case, given the significance of the patch it seems sensible for the developers to watch and let things settle for a while before any further changes are made. Keep sharing your observations, and keep trying new things, but patience is likely the order of the day here.

    Addressing the larger issue of fun: there are a lot of things about 2D fighting games that, well, simply aren't fun. Or rather, much of the time the fun comes from a particular kind of studious engagement, like learning to play competitive chess or go. These games are difficult to learn to play well, and the process of learning can feel like bashing yourself against a brick wall as you work through loss after loss. The composition of the scene itself makes this particularly difficult for newcomers because (like grandma's bridge club) the community appears to be populated almost entirely by terrifyingly skilled people who seem to have been playing these games forever. The learning curve to reach a level of competency for an even match with the average fighting game player is frustratingly steep. Even worse, unlike chess or go or bridge, when you are losing you don't even get a turn. If I'm getting destroyed by some 9 kyu in go, I'm on the defensive the entire time, and I know I'm losing, but at least I get to make decisions. Losing in a fighting game means not actually getting to play the game, as you sit through a combo that feels like an eternity, and this is a structural element of most fighting games that genuinely sucks. These are all legitimate obstacles to enjoying fighting games as a newcomer (even a relative one - and yes, even with 400 hours logged you're still a relative newcomer).

    So I can understand your frustration. I hope that everyone else can take a step back for a quick second to recognize that even if they disagree with Koren's assessment of the match-ups, there is something intrinsic to the genre that makes playing on even a slightly uneven playing field (be it skill or match-up) kind of difficult to bear unless you're approaching it from a very particular mindset. The frustration is real. And not everybody is a monk.

    That said, this is precisely one of the reasons why the stagger reset change is so beneficial to this game. Neutral is the one part of a fighting game that both players "play" equally. The stagger reset change means that it limits the length of combos and the strength of set play, and allows defending players the opportunity to reset back to neutral. Balancing individual characters is a matter of fine tuning. This kind of systemic change is a bold statement about what the developers believe the game should play like at its core. Everyone gets to play more of the game, not just the person with the longest combo. To me this decision demonstrates a commitment to the idea of neutral on the part of the developers that gives me tremendous faith in the game.
     
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  37. ZeroParadox

    ZeroParadox Ace Daydreamer
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    The problem with your exaggeration on how bad the matchup is has nothing to do with how bad it gets, but how bad it actually is. No one's disagreeing with you that the matchup is bad. That doesn't make the matchup "shit" and godawful to play. 6-4 matchups exist in plenty of games outside of this one. You learn to play those out properly. Throwing buffs and nerfs at something doesn't erase matchups like this. One character can fly, the other character has to play a strong ground game. Buff Arizona too much and she becomes a problem for everyone else just to deal with this particular matchup. Now balance is actually skewed when you could've just played the matchup despite it not being in your favor. It doesn't matter if you don't care about the numbers, if you're saying it's shit, I'm saying it's not. Tian is a fly that if you squash is going down fast due to her low health pool and your potential for oki and resets in a very short period of time. Tian players will tell you it's not fun being at the end of a lasso.

    We've played a bit when you bothered to come around. You had a few short strings, stomped a lot, and made questionable approaches. You might not remember me, but I remember you. I'm not bringing this up to bash you for the sake of it, but if you're going to act as a higher authority on the matter, I'm going to question your experience for as much as I do know of it. I think you've got a ways to go before you can start calling for changes to an entire character, for reasons stated above.

    The "circle" I'm in isn't some closed off group. The unofficial Discord is run by tester and forum mod CamTSB. You can easily look it up here on the forums. You've already been in there, you've simply stop coming by a lot recently. And this "circle" is made up of people who are playing in or helping run Fightin' Foenatics and related events, such as TSM, which I've heard you've participated in (although that's something I haven't looked at, I'm not really trying to take time to stalk you here, so this is just word of mouth). Point is, I'm not talking about my buddies having some talks during a car ride. If you really want to make some "noise", you could be in this Discord having the same discussion you're trying to have now to greater effect and with more feebdack without feeling like you're just being bullied into silence.

    I don't care if you know me or not. But I know you've been rude, and you've had no reason to act this way. So now that we've "met", please keep that in mind that your civility isn't something that should work like a faucet that you turn on and off at your own convenience. If you want a proper discussion, you treat everyone with respect. People are trying to help you, and regardless if you receive answers or not, you have no right to try and shut people down for doing so. That's on you.

    Beyond that, if you want to learn more than "Just use X move, it works", it would help you greatly if you could decide to work together with me. I've never been a fan of "just do X" myself, and my conversations have more or less have been to brush past that thought and go in depth on what to actually do. In other words, I could have done well to be your hypothetical training partner, and I even asked you to come back here and start talking about the match up proper, but instead you want to continue acting like this, so that too is on you.

    Strong player doesn't equal well spoken, but strong players aren't obligated to help you on a whim. They're doing their best, and when you don't get what you want right away, you snap back at them? Again, you ought to be willing to show more respect to people. I equally understand there's not a lot of proper discussion being thrown around. That's why I'm trying so hard to create such a discussion. And I'm here doing what I can to get these guys in on that. I'm not trying to make myself the "king" of such information, sitting a top a mountain of answers that I give away to those I consider worthy, or something silly. I'm actively asking you to come here and add to that discussion. You've had the opportunity to do so, and have not. You have the opportunity to do so, and have not. So what do you want beyond that point if you will not take the initiative where you can? That too is on you.

    No one is throwing shade at you in secret. I can't stress enough that I'm here because I've heard about how you've been acting and I don't appreciate it. I speak for myself when it comes to my opinions here, no one else. Do not make this an "I versus them" situation. This is me talking to you and vice versa, plain and simple.

    I'm not even going to bother with the next paragraph about the idea that I haven't read anything up to this point.

    You're not being told to punch a wall. You're being told several times that this feels like punching a wall, but there are ways to pick at the brick and mortar without hurting yourself, but upon hearing that, you say "No, I think I just need stronger fists", and then trying to get everyone else to agree with you on that. And regardless of how you might perceive responses, that's still zero reason to retaliate poorly.

    There may be problems with the game. There is plenty beyond those problems not discussed because the community is rather small, which is why all hands should be on deck to have any discussion. Limiting yourself to this forum is your choice. You were presented with opinions that were not of like mind to you. If you are truly trying to do right by this game and it's players, you need to figure out why those opinions exist. Instead you close yourself off to them and treat them as attacks on you as a player and person. That's not helping anyone, yourself least of all.
     
    #37 ZeroParadox, May 28, 2018
    Last edited: May 28, 2018
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  38. ZeroParadox

    ZeroParadox Ace Daydreamer
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    Now to get back to where I wanted to be.
    Tian isn't anything close to being completely safe in the air. Despite her many angles of attack she lacks real zoning tools and has to commit to her movement options and also what happens to her after burning through said options, or the resources necessary to use those options. Her ability to run away is something I got to discuss with Cam himself and a few others who were helping me deal with the particular issue at the time I was thinking on it (which again, happened in the servers). I'm not sure if additional measures will be taken, but in the recent patch, her ascent is slower and her descent is faster when flying. That should hurt, not help, her runaway game, and I haven't really seen you mention that aspect of the recent patch notes yet.

    Ari's 4D easily controls the runaway space she wanted to control anyway. That was always the case and any Tian from either 5 months ago or now will tell you that flying into a 4D is a god awful experience. The real threat is lying in 6A range. Using Arizona's 6A is pretty tricky because it doesn't extend out horizontally like most other 6As above her, and she doesn't have anti air normals she can rely on outside of it, like Olly/Pom 2B or Tian 5B. The air space in front of Arizona needs to be covered however, because Tian can start IADing and flipping and crossing up and without an anti air you can't really do anything about it. Arizona's air normals should cover that space, but they're a hard commitment you can get hit out of. So for a while I've been trying to see how you can 6A in a matchup like this, because that's basically the only way you can keep the Tian honest and force her to be scared at both 4D and 6A ranges.

    At first I thought I was using 6A incorrectly. I tried using it a little further away, so that it would hit at max distance, but this wouldn't work if the Tian just stayed slightly outside that distance. I thought I could play a little lamer, but she's not really afraid of stomps either. You've gotta force her to land, but that means committing to moves that take up air space, like those air normals I mentioned.

    What I've recently comes across (just last night even), however, is that Arizona is in an odd position. I think this hasn't come up because no other character has this problem, but Arizona is the only character who has to use something like 6A, maybe 236B in order to anti air up close. And I noticed that against something like Pom j.C, a notorious jump in for any matchup, but particularly worse for Arizona, would always hit me out of my 6A, but not other characters' 6As. I thought that just made sense since they had better hitboxes, but when going up against Pom's 2B anti air, I realized a lot of my air normals, even my short hop ones, had a tendency to whiff even before she hit the button despite being right on top of her. And that's when I came to understand the importance of this game's crouching hurtboxes.

    It seems a good number of character's jump ins have a harder time connecting on crouching opponent's. 6As use crouching hurtboxes to avoid those jump ins, so it makes sense that 6As utilize a crouching hurtbox to be effective anti airs... when they work. Despite having that characteristic, I usually only see taller 6As ever really work well for people. Otherwise people will stick to anti air normals. But since Arizona can't do that, she has to rely on the 6A, and I begun to understood playing against Hamit's Pom what was going on.

    When you're playing neutral and you go to 6A against anyone as Arizona, you're typically doing so from a standing position (since you're trying to move around in neutral). Pom j.C will catch you during the frames while you're standing, so unless you 6A right on time, you'll get hit trying to attempt it. So I tried crouching before using my 6A's to take advantage of the crouching hurtbox, and I was able to hit Pom out of j.C at very close ranges, which I could not do previously. Crouching into 6A just right will not force Arizona into a standing position, so you maintain a crouching hurtbox the whole way through. This makes anti airing much easier.
     
    #38 ZeroParadox, May 28, 2018
    Last edited: May 29, 2018
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  39. ZeroParadox

    ZeroParadox Ace Daydreamer
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    I've already felt in the past that some changes needed to be made in order to keep things fair for Arizona. Pom j.C is something I can beat with any other character's anti air. But I've worked through what I've had to work with thus far. In light of this new information, I think it's possible to say that Arizona does actually has what she needs. I need to spend some more time in the lab and matches with her today against Pom and Tian (I'm very tired and in the middle of resetting my sleep cycle, so that'll probably happen any day but today), but if this is a way to make the current 6A work, it might not be necessary to make her anti-airs stronger just yet. Although I do think it's a bit odd that you would need to do something like this. It doesn't seem like something Arizona should have to do as an intentional design choice? But I don't know what happens on the dev side of things. What I do know is that if I can 6A a Pom j.C, anti-airing Tian wouldn't be any more difficult outside of her baiting your anti air, which with her movement options, is something she's capable of doing from the get go. The match up doesn't get to 5-5 territory because of that, but if Arizona can control the major space on the screen where Tian operates to approach, she has to respect the Arizona in neutral, which is what should happen, while still having aerial superiority.
     
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  40. Korencz11

    Korencz11 Backers' Beta Tester
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    I'm sorry? based on this, each rope has one active frame. So unless training mode is wrong, rope has less active frames than Arizona's pitiful jab, and the recovery on a whiffed rope is almost a whole second. Whiffing it is a death sentence and were it any other character, that kind of thing would get significantly buffed, such as velvet's icicles turned snowflakes making half her moves completely safe and + on block. If the reward for hitting 5D is just a stagger that can only be used effectively at the beginning of a combo, having it hit air would be like making Pap's kiss refund JD.

    I think you under estimate how powerful 2D is. To give a common scenario, 2D can be used after any stomp and it can effectively be looped into itself thanks to prejump and being able to use stomp A before they can recover (i.e. catch them once with 2D, again as they try to get up, stomp A to prevent a jump away, then back into 2D or what have you whether or not the stomp is blocked.). It also catches standing and crouching characters, which 5D does not. Sure it's a hard knockdown but it creates an entire set up where you get to force a 3 way guess (high/low/grab) on their part as to what you do next, and if they try to tech roll, it's a free grab which forces the situation again. To hit 5D, you essentially have to predict a run in or a poke at range where you back dash to make sure the rope even connects. Of course, if they're cautious, the can just duck or jump to get away without really losing any steam. It's useable in combos but doesn't create the same destructive position that 2D does since they can tech immediately if stagger's up or it's already been used where 2D gives me a chance to set up at any point it hits.

    So, for her to have two AA options, one of which has one active frame, the other of which has 4 and next to being just as long as her jab, I just don't see how that makes sense in a game where four of six characters can stall falling/halt the jump at any point in their movement (velvet using a snowflake or Icecicle mid jump, Ollie's double jump/read, Pom's float/air dash, Tian's fly/air dash). All four of them can close the distance and get in without going in 4D range entirely while staying airborne. Would it really clash if it was essentially something like a straight or even down angled 2D in air that didn't affect the jump arc and still caused just as much recovery on a whiff?

    After talking with the guy, I think Bubble plays up situations to be not as bad as they are. He (and Arcanel for that matter) is one of the people that This post:


    mentioned are content to say 'it's fine' and move on. He also kinda threw me under the bus and acted like I didn't know how to play the game even though we used to play regularly and I would take games regularly, so I'm not super inclined to trust him here.

    I mean, please respond in anyway you feel, that's what the forums are for, but preferably keep it civil and make it have a purpose. You can chew me out on discord. The point of that statement was to agree with what you were saying, and try get this conversation to move to the forums where there's permanence and I can go back and read the things that are said.

    I'll for sure come back to check out patches and when story eventually gets eventually done, hell I might even come back in a week or two because I can't stay away from the drug. But I need to take a break because I've started to take this way too seriously and I get too angry when I play. I notice things, I question things, and when I perceive things as unfair or unbalanced, that makes it easier for me to get mad. It's rough sometimes.

    Hey man, that's a real suggestion that no one has made. I've always had a decent handle on Tian so maybe I'll try that.

    Another thing no one has mentioned.

    What a response. He didn't come down on me with a hammer, he didn't say I was entirely wrong or I was even just a shit player, and he gave me actual advice that was worth something. This guy is a hero and the person people should strive to emulate in a civil discussion.
     
    #40 Korencz11, May 29, 2018
    Last edited: May 29, 2018