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Cross-Canter Discussion

marsephel

Backers' Beta Tester
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 8, 2016
25
34
For the love of god we have to spend half a meter on cross-canter, make it Air-OK! so ridiculous wall combos can be escaped, meter generates slowly enough in this game that cross-canter is already a big commitment to use. Thoughts?
 

CamTSB

僕は誰なんだろう?
Mane6 QA
Feb 2, 2016
474
494
29
Ontario, Canada
twitter.com
Just to make it clear, cross canter doesn't escape combos. It's a guard cancel, which means it can only be done while blocking. It being able to be done in the air isn't going to change that fact about it at the very least. Did you mean that instead, or were you actually speaking about something that you'd want to escape combos?
 

Rich87

New Member
Apr 24, 2020
1
0
I think he meant to say under block pressure you should be able to cross canter in the air as well as on the ground.
 

ph00tbag

Backers' Beta Tester
Backers' Beta Tester
Oct 19, 2016
67
72
Gonna go out on a limb and suggest that midair cross canters are probably unnecessary. Blocking mid-air is already a pretty powerful concept to begin with. Midair cross canter would make it risky just to challenge jump-ins.
 

marsephel

Backers' Beta Tester
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 8, 2016
25
34
Rich87 clarified for me, I mean air cross-canter should be allowed in air while blocking because wall pressure is very strong. If you challenge a jump in with it you lose half a bar of meter which is significant so that shouldn't be a problem.
 

CamTSB

僕は誰なんだろう?
Mane6 QA
Feb 2, 2016
474
494
29
Ontario, Canada
twitter.com
Yeah that's a fair thing, however these things do balance out in a way. When in the air, you don't have your WHOLE defensive kit as like you said you don't have Cross Canter, but you do have pushblock. This is mostly because blocking in the air is just a better general thing than blocking on the ground because you don't have to block high vs low.

When grounded, you get both of those defensive options because you also have to focus on blocking rather than just using the fact that you're in the air. If you block well on the ground and find a good opportunity to use it, then that's where you can use Cross Canter.

I understand that you can sometimes very much feel overwhelmed about how much pressure is going on, but there's a lot of options in those given situations, and Cross Canter isn't going to be the only answer to them.
 

marsephel

Backers' Beta Tester
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 8, 2016
25
34
Have you fought a strong Tien huo player? Because wall pressure is absolutely ridiculous (even moreso with her lvl 2) and the combos are basically DBFZ length w/out air cross-canter to eacape. Wall combo resets shouldn't be up to a 50-50 block read on get-up for ground cross canter. There has to be a more viable return to neutral that doesn't risk another 3rd of your health bar or more on every reset.
 
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CamTSB

僕は誰なんだろう?
Mane6 QA
Feb 2, 2016
474
494
29
Ontario, Canada
twitter.com
That's exactly why I mentioned pushblock, yes. DBFZ's only defensive mechanic is their guard cancel, but we don't just have that.

Cross Canter is a guard cancel, and brings you back to neutral, but pushblocking can also end someone's pressure if you time it properly. Knowing what moves to pushblock against Tianhuo is extremely important, otherwise (like you said) you'll just end up getting smothered.

You can't just add a free or less costly way to completely return to neutral. That would negate the work that the other player has done to get in. The cost of Cross Canter, and where you can use it, and how people can fight against it are all extremely intended mechanics.
 

marsephel

Backers' Beta Tester
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 8, 2016
25
34
Combo game is incredibly strong in this game and meter builds slowly, spending half a meter isn't less costly and certainly isn't free. Push block isn't always effective against an aggressive character if their holding in, there's counter push block that can negate getting the character off you which can be incredibly powerful during wall combos. Push block isn't always enough in those situations and an aerial cross counter would be a risky but effective way to guarantee the character gets off you like a burst mechanic, something this game doesn't have that it would sorely need w/o cross counter, but limiting it to the ground is just limiting options. I don't see a good argument why it would be op in the air in any situation.
 

Svierrod

Backers' Beta Tester
Backers' Beta Tester
Feb 4, 2016
105
61
But you're not ... you're not really in danger while you're air blocking. And certainly not while you're in the corner. If you're air blocking a bunch of hits against Tian with your back to the wall, there's basically nothing she can do to you until you land. She can't make you guess between high/low in the air, and she can't make you guess between left/right in the corner. Most attacks seem to put you into aerial blockstun until you land anyway, so air-to-air tick throws would be very limited, and difficult for Tian to set up, and extremely telegraphed.

Remember: you have to land at some point. Also remember that your blockstun doesn't carry over when you land, so as soon as you touch the floor, you can do any of your grounded reversal options anyway. Backdash is free on everybody, and can work even better when you're cornered if you avoid the right move (free punish, since you're still in their face).

Getting caught air blocking, especially in the corner, is completely free and effortless. Once you're in aerial blockstun with your back to the wall, you are just literally immune to absolutely everything, almost always all the way to the floor, which creates an automatic gap in their pressure no matter what. In terms of defense, you cannot possibly be in a better position than that.

This is why I'm confused by this discussion. I don't say this to be mean or sarcastic, I just genuinely cannot understand looking at the absolute best possible defensive position that's even imaginable [Immune to high/low, immune to left/right, immune to ground throws, 90% immune to air throws, which are techable on reaction anyway, with a guaranteed pressure gap the moment you're vulnerable to anything, and you can still pushblock], and then being disappointed about not having an expensive and risky redundancy.

Like, from where I'm standing, I'm right there with you on: "I can't see any argument that aerial Cross Canter would be OP", because I can't even see why it would ever be good for anything in the first place. The purpose of Cross Canter is to forcibly create a gap in your opponent's blockstring, but landing from air blockstun just does that for free, and you're pretty much just completely safe until you get to that free gap anyway, and you have a broader variety of options when you get to the gap. Options that include "Continue blocking, and do a ground Cross Canter", by the way.
 
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